Losing Speed Every Race

Expert Discussion Advanced Sprint Training
1

Hello,

First some background information. I am 5’10’-5’11 and
205-210 pounds, 25 yrs. Background is in weightlifting. I got into sprinting last year because I have always thought I was fast and was usually the fastest member of most sports teams (soccer, basketball etc.)

Last year I trained for about one month and then ran two races. Always 100/200m. The times in the first were 11.4/25.5, the times in the second race was 11.0 but I tore my hamstring across the line and was out for four months. I know the times are not great and I know I need to lose weight, but I thought with more training I would get faster.

This January I started training on the track 3x per week again and I feel 100% healthy. I started running races again the beginning of March. However, something crazy has happened, my 100m time is now terrible and my 200m is passable! My races this year are 23.0/11.77 and 22.8/11.8. All times FAT.

What gives? I haven’t lost any strength in the weight room, I have probably lost five pounds of bodyweight and I have done actual track training for the first time in my life. I still die in the 200m toward the end but not as bad as last year. I figure someone my size should not be running these ratios! 11.82 = 23.6! Athletes have told me only 200m specialized guys in good shape can run under their 100m2. It’s very surprising someone with so much extra bodyweight should do this?

Anyway I have put up the last 4 videos, they are the 100’s and 200’s I have ran this season, maybe I can get advice from the experts…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc4qcxAr_UQ

This race is a 200m. I am the winner and I am the big guy in the black and white. I wear similar clothes in the rest but i am losing. The other videos can be found by clicking on the T0ddDay the uploader of this video.

Thank you!

2

could you give us some information on your training. an exmple of a week would help, both lifting and running.

3

I agree with the above post; what is your training like? Maybe you’ve focused on longer sprint work which has helped your speed endurance at the expense of your 100m times.

It is also possible that you have a protective or inhibitive response to the 100m since it was the race in which you injured your hamstring. Perhaps there’s a little inhibition in your brain and CNS that needs to be “unlearned.”

4

For lifting, I trained as a weightlifter until about 2006, back then I was training lifting about six days per week, I won’t list the training but it was probably pretty standard for weightlifting. It consisted mostly of full clean and jerks, full snatches, squatting and many clean and snatch variations, ie. hang, box, power, drop snatch, jerks, push press etc. Also we would bench press once per week and do pullups and muscle ups.

I’ve tried to cut back on lifting to lose weight, especially from upper body, so now I lift twice per week:

Day 1: Power cleans, Speed Squats, 1 leg iso deads.
Day 2: Power Snatch, Full Squats, Split Squats.

My track work is M: 400, 300, 200 usually in 55-58, 39-42, 24-25.

Recently I switched to 3,2,1 in about 38,24,12.

Tues: off

Wed: 7 150s, 10 100’s, 3 300’s or 6 200’s.

Thur: Was like Wed but just last week switched to
blocks: 3X10,2X20m, 2x60m, 1 flying 90.

Sat: Either a 100,200 at a meet or otherwise 6 120’s.

Thanks!

5

Here is your answer then. Until last week you were doing no acceleration and no top speed work. Even if you were a 200/400 guy you would need more speed work in your training. Try three high intensity days per week, and do some starts at the beginning of each one of them. One could be dedicated to acceleration (20-60m sprints from blocks or various other starting positions), one to top speed (flying sprints, easy-fast-easy, fast-easy-fast ,etc.) and one to speed endurance (sprints between 100 and 300m). Your other two or three days could be tempo days. Lifting should be done on the high intensity days after the track work.

6

that is very good advice.
Volume wise for speed work you should stay around 300-500 meters overall, begin on the low end and work your way up and never sacrifice quality f the runs just to finish all the reps. Also, keep the reps low in the weight room.

7

Interesting. I thought that the 10 100’s or 6 120’s was somewhat passable as speed work. I still don’t get how last year I ran for only a month with the same schedule,

M: 4,3,2 W,R: 7 150s, 10 100’s or 6 200’s.

And I ran 11.0 after only a month of this training. And this year I’m at 11.7 with lighter bodyweight.

I get that the lack of speed work might not make me faster, but it shouldn’t make me significantly slower right?
It’s not like I am running miles or anything…

8

Was your 11.0 FAT or hand-timed? If you ran 11.0 and 25.2 I would seriously question that 11.0- even with zero speed endurance training you should be able to run faster than 25.2.

I ran 25.41 last year in the 200m, and my season best in the 100m was 12.61! Something does not add up here.

9

How reliable was the timing of the 11.0? Perhaps it was faulty. Is the 11.7 FAT?

10

All times are FAT. The 25.2 was my first 200 ever. I probably ran splits of about 11.low and 14.xx. I created a 10 meter lead and still lost badly…

I don’t think accuracy of the times has much to do with it because I have further evidence from training partners. I’ve trained and competed against a 400m hurder guy who runs 21.high and ran his first hundreds last year at 11.low. I used to clip him in the hundred and get blown out in the 200. Now I’m even with him until about 110 in the 200 and then only lose by about 5-10 meters. In the 100m he takes me from the gun…

It might be something. I’ve fiddled with my start a lot, and I find myself playing catchup in the 100m. In the 200m my start is harder to judge from the stagger, but in the videos I posted I think it looks ok… Maybe starting in lanes is mentally good for me…

Anyway, I’m running in an invitational next weekend, so by then I’ll have 3-4 solid weeks of speed training under my belt. I’ll report the times on here.

11

Also, I spoke to a coach who watched my races. He claims my biggest problem is stride frequency. I was surprised because I am not that tall 5-11 and I am overweight (205 lbs) so I didn’t think I would have the advantage in stride length. He claims that in my races I usually have a better stride length than other competitors but very poor turnover. He said its common for someone with a strength background to lack turnover…

Does this make sense? I assumed my weightlifting background would give me better turnover and poor stride length… From the videos is there truth to this?

12

if you had a weightlifting background, then your start should be the strongest part of your race. there are probably technique issues with your start if you are behind.

13

You may have gotten your explosiveness from a higher volume of olympic lifts back then. With a reduced volume of lifts and a huge amount of intermediate speed overdistance runs I don’t think your lack of acceleration and top speed should come as too much of a surprise to you.

14

Well you say your start is gone, you say you used to do lot of olympic weightlifting.

So obviously your explosive power has suffered because you aren’t training it anymore.

15

Thanks for all the replies…

I feel sort of handcuffed with how to train now…

My best olympic lifts were 155kg and 124kg. They came at a bodyweight of 210-220.

I have no idea where I am now in full lifts, because I only do power versions with metal plates but my power clean, snatch right now are about 275lbs and 225lbs, not that far off what I used to do for power versions in training…

I’m trying to maximize my ability in sprinting and If I go back to the volume I used when I trained for weightlifting I simply won’t be able to do track work, at least not track work at much intensity.

At this point in the season do you guys really think it would be beneficial to up the volume of lifting? I don’t think so especially because I am new to track so I really have no clue how to run, and I want to lose weight, and weightlifting will make me gain some back…

The start is hard because it’s technical. A oly backgound does not give me a good start at all! It gives me good acceleration, thats it. Even when I ran 11.0 I started last for the 1st 5-10 meters, accelerated and caught everyone by 40-50 meters and then hung on for 4th place of 8…

Since my acceleration is all oly lifts seem to aid me with and my acceleration phase is still OK, what would be best to get better track times? Presumably its work on turnover, endurance at the end, starts and top speed. Should I go back to weights for this or should I do more track work to get faster?

16

If your goal is to run faster, I’d spend more time doing quality runs and maybe lose some weight. You sound strong enough to be quick, but at 5’11 210 is very heavy for a sprinter.

17

I don’t think anyone is suggesting to increase your lifting volume. I was just trying to explain how a higher lifting volume in the past could have compensated for your lack of speed work on the track. My suggestion is thus not to go back to your previous lifting volumes but to add some true speed and acceleration work into your track program.

18

Thanks…

First of all I’m not exactly sure what TRUE speed work and acceleration work means… But what do you think of this plan going forward.

M: 300, 200 100 in 38,25,12.

(I know this is long, but I do it with a friend and it recovers me from weekend)

Tues: Speed Work, help me here… I am thinking,

6x50m, 2x60m, 2x120m.

Wed:
Am lifting: Power Clean - 3x185,205,225,245,265
Speed Squat: 5x5x225 7 seconds or less per set (hand timed obviously…)
Iso 1 legged deads: 3 sets of 20 seconds @ 135. (just learning these, weight should go up)
Pullups: 3x10

Pm Running: Either 3x300, 6x200, 8x120 or 10x100
(switch it up each week)

(I could lift at night after running but it’s pretty late for me)

Thurs: Block work. 6x20, 2x40, 2x60
Out of blocks: 2 flying 90’s.

Friday off.

Weekend:

Compete 100m, 200m
Lifting: Power Snatch 3x135,185,205,225
Heavy Fast Squat: 3x225,275,295,315
1 Legged Squats: 3x5x185
Dumbell shoulders: 3x10x50’s

If not competing that weekend:

Running: 6x120 in around 14 secs…

What do you think of this as a schedule moving forward? Still too much overdistance? Recall I am not fast and I have no track background. My Pr’s are 11.0 and 22.8 with only about 5 races to my history and about 4 non-injured months training… Main goal is to get BW down from 210 to 190 and run under 11sec consistently! I got into this because I bet a friend I could run fast!

Thanks

19

I would go back and have another look at what
Robin1 suggested for you on the previous page!
It was something like this -

Here is your answer then. Until last week you were doing no acceleration and no top speed work. Even if you were a 200/400 guy you would need more speed work in your training. Try three high intensity days per week, and do some starts at the beginning of each one of them. One could be dedicated to acceleration (20-60m sprints from blocks or various other starting positions), one to top speed (flying sprints, easy-fast-easy, fast-easy-fast ,etc.) and one to speed endurance (sprints between 100 and 300m). Your other two or three days could be tempo days. Lifting should be done on the high intensity days after the track work.

(Also be sure to go for full recoveries on the
short speed days - eg around 1min for each
10m run etc)

20

I ran another race last weekend.

It was 100m, I ran 11.32 FAT. The starter held us long and two people false started and were out. On the third try I was nervous to false start and didn’t get the best start to say the least. I won’t compete for awhile but will be running most all summer so I have until about August first to get my goal of under 11 seconds in a meet.

I did some testing of my weights stats to see how much strength I have lost since my oly days, I was apprehensive about maxing so I could probably do slightly more… No bumpers so i only did power versions heres my test results:

Power Snatch - 205 for 5 (easy)
Power Clean - 275 for double (hard)
Full ATG squat - 365 for triple (hard)
deadlift: 405 for 5 (easy, but I don’t go hard on these for injury reasons)
One Step Vertical: 38 inches
Broad Jump: 10 feet 10 inches
Electronic Flying 30s - 3.02, 2.94, 2.97
Hand timed 20m from blocks - 2.95, 3.2, 2.88

Although I have lost strength I am wondering if it is sufficient for my goals? I am considering trying to bring back my squat to its peak (400+) or else maintaining it or possibly dropping weights completely.

  • I had a conversation with a coach who said that at my size (5-11 212 pounds with clothes) that 11.32 is actually quite good and I the only thing I should focus on is losing weight cause I am way too big. I do have some non-functional muscle for sure (back and traps). He claimed the sooner I get down to 170-180 (a huge drop) the sooner I will fly. He predicted mid tens if I can get this weight.

  • His advice was to stop lifting and continue my speed work 2x weekly and add more tempo to lose weight. Something like a speed day, a speed starts day, and three tempo days weekly.

  • I know I need to lose weight but I know when I drop speed work I get slow. I never really dropped weights so I can’t say the effect that may have. I will say despite the advice of the people here, a strong oly background does NOT help my start! It helps the acceleration from the third step to about the 20-30m. However block clearance and the first two steps seems to be a skill that I am pretty hit or miss at (sometimes 2.8, sometimes 3.2 in practice).

How should I go about weight loss? Should I try and lose all weight through diet? Or should I try and tailor workouts to help me lose weight as well? As far as weights, should I quit or should I do the minimum to maintain strength (say just cleans/squats) and cut out lots of reps so I can lose some muscle too? My bodyfat is def too high, but I’m not gonna be able to lose this weight from all fat. I am between 10-15% BF, so losing thirty pounds has to come from somewhere else…