Why do people not follow Locatelli’s training or P Belloti’s ideas. I am not suprised people always want to re-invent the wheel even when they have been shown the way… Mennea did not get to where he was without much thought to his training.
I hate to mention names without permission. Also it puts pressure on people. All will become clear over the nxt two years I am sure…
This italian training stuff is really interesting. Also, since my mom was born in italy she always kids me that if I get good enough in track, I could run for italy in the olympics some day. If that’s how most italians train, maybe I have a shot:)
Try to find stuff on Mennea and Pavoni’s training, you will see that it has more in common with CF’s training than the mess mentioned above. Maybe I should state Old school Italian sprint coaching refering specifically to Locatelli (with research backed-up by C Bosco) and others who collaborated with them. NOT any old Italian coaches or coach like the one mentioned above. Of course. the Italians have not made much impact since these coaches either retired or gave up coaching. Reading their articles and the reasons why they prescribed speed work is like reading CF’s ideas. The differences between the two camps pertains to strength loading and when to maintain, and the use of tempo. Both camps develop speed endurance using 60m sprints with special endurance around the same distances. Speed is developed in a generally similar manner. There are other differences but if you total up the volume of speed work for both training regimens you will see that they are very similar along with intensity in a yearly plan. I can not claim to know much about present Italian coaches but Mennea’s coaches seemed to follow a similar path to other successful sprint programs of their era and I dare say they are still relevant today. So when I mentioned Italian school of sprinting I am refering to the training protocol of ONE camp and nothing else…its my personal definition of their work and nothing else. Just as I would say the Canadian school of sprinting when refering to CF and CF alone to hell with all other coaches i do not know about in Canada…no offence but the best get titles from me.
Originally Posted by martn76
Like I said watch out for coaches like M Afilaika and his athletes over the next 5-10 years he seems to be going about it the right way.
Been a fan of British athtletics and I have to say things are in a bad state. There is the coaching side with coaches that think they no it all, the structure that have not held the “so-called” superstarts like MLF accountable.
95% of the coaches mean well but it looks like most of them dont want to improve themsleves and learn more from othere coaches.
Martin76 is right Michael Afiilaka is suppose to be one of the young up and coming coaches that people are talking about, he is suppose to be very scientific and his willing to learn.
The problem is like majority of british coaches he can only coach his athlete part time becuase most of them all have a full time job. It looks like he has only been on the scene for about a year or so but one of his young girl ran 7.20 indoors and one of his young sprinters has gone to 20.7 this year i fink.
The guy that MLF has gone to and also coaches Devenoish and Oyepitan and lambert is a full time coach but those he has problems making his athletes peak when needed and does not believe in speed. His method seem to be get as fit as you can and then starts speed work. i hope MLF DOES WELL cos as a fan it would be good to go and watch a meet nx with a good british sprinter in the field.
There is also Mike Macfalen, does anybody know what is doing now since Dwanye Chambers left him?..
the coach of mennea was Vittori:in italy, most of the coaches follow his principles of training.In coaches school it’s the model they teach.
Since I have lots of his stuff I tend to disagree on the similarities btwn Cf and his works:There have been recent changes in his methodology,but still I can see huge volumes of speed endurance (5 x 5 x 60 avg 6"5), the dismission of weigths at the beginning of the season, and when they are used, in the last guide for the coaches, the volumes in general prep where like 10 sets of squats and 10 sets of parallel squats, plus, upperbody and 30 minutes of warm up with weightlifting exercises.
A unique feature I found on the first mesocycles of spec prep, was that actual sprinting was done on the renerative week, and not the loading one.
I think there are lots of things to learn on every camp, but I think that there are more differencies than similarities btwn CF and he Italian School.
Btw, the idea to test sprint, jumps and weigths maximums during recovery weeks come from Donati and Belloti I think…(I respect greatly the work of Donati, but sometimes I wonder If something is a bit outdated;some yeras ago, talking about muscle mass development,e said that the only way to get big was to train everyday 8 hours with weigths:(
yes, i remember the interview of donati!
I thought the general public weren’t allowed to use most of the eis facilities. Think David Woodhouse mentioned this problem sometime ago?
The objectives and beliefs behind Vittori et als coaching is sound. What you must do is understand why they did 5x5x60m that is for 200m training. In fact they switched the emphasis to 2x3x80m eventually later in Mennea and Pavoni’s careers. Donati, it is true that he had some suspect ideas about stength work, but; the reasons given for doing speed endurance over 60m as opposed to greater distances are very very similar to CF’s reasoning, their belief that reactive strength is a major contributing factor afeter the first 20m of a 100m race are in line with CFs intimations. Their use of specific plyometric exercises such as h hops for developing max speed components again are similar You have to take what works form successful programs and also know what the “diamonds in the rough” of training programs are.
Do not take the program and prescribe it without understanding it and applying it without thought. You have to modify and apply to individuals using the general ideas behind the plan. Very few people could run 5x5x60m in 6.5 sec avg. Ask yourself if Mennea started off doing this or trained to get to this level using the general ideas behind the training program. The volumes are specific to men already running 6.5 secs who were training to run 200m in 20 secs and 400m in sub 45 and 100m in 10.1 secs circa. Take the general feel of the program and adapt, it do not do exactly the same volumes and sessions then turn around and say “damn the volumes of speed endurance are excessive”. The strength training sets you mentioned above are impossible to understand if you do not take into context what was being done to control the weights sessions. They did not do 10 sets for the sake of it. It was controlled against testing equipment produced by Prof Dr C Bosco. Feedback was provided by computer and linear encoders to measure parameters that had to be met in each set. You see this is what I get annoyed with all this. I dare say there is someone some where in the world doing exactly the same training sessions (without modifications to account for individual status) that CF has published. That person will turn around and say “Oh CF’s training does not work” when they do not run 9.8 secs after doing the sessions. It does not work that way and never will. No training program fits all. maybe thats the reason why we have not seen any competitive Italian sprint athletes on the scene for some time. Maybe Andrew Howe may change all that.
[QUOTE=rookie] but i don’t think he has the intelligence to even realise the opportunity he has been offered by Trevor Graham and Jon Smith or maybe even Charlie if he’s interested?
QUOTE]
I’ve got a friend who has MLF’s phone number. Hell, I’ll take Jon Smith’s offer. 
Maybe he’s trying to bulk?
I’m from Birmingham. He was in my local paper saying he’s following a cleaner diet. He mentioned going to Linford Christie’s training camps too.
anyoone can see how the program are implemented, months by months
you can see 19y’s guy who ran 4 x 4 x 60 m (100 m sprinter).
the we can see
- body shape: yes! faster boy aren’t bber but i can’t see nerd as sprinter! Poor strength program
- frequency of training: many of these guys train hard 4-5 session/week
- volume: these guys train more than MoG without to have a decent restorativ program
- intensity: many sprinters spend 3 months in aerobic work! we talk about sprinter and not marathoner
===========
I’m writing some programs of Mennea taken from his trainer book:
a week, before european championship in 1978
22/8/1978
sprint from block:
- 4 sprint with opponents;
- 4 sprint without opponents.
speed endurance
4 x 60 m + 3 x 80 m + 3 x 100 m, r.i. 1’30"-2’ between rps and 8’ btw sets
Time: 6"64, 6"62, 6"50, 6"48/8"52, 8"53, 8"60/10"58, 10"68, 10"92
23/8/1978
sprint from blocks, exchanges for relays, 5 sprints with opponents, 8’ r.it
1 x 250 m = 25"76 (20"45)
15’ r.i.
2 ends of turn over 100s
first 50s-fly =4"52
second 50s-fly= 4"48
24/8/1978
skip
5 sprints stand start with moviment
5 sprint stand start
3 sprint from blocks
2 x 5 x 30-40 m from block
4 x 100 m (easy)
25/8/1978
accelerations, stand start, over 40-50 m
2 x 150 m, r.i. 18’
1°= 14"87 (10"26 + 4"61)
2°= 15"15 (10"39 + 4"66)
First race: 29/8/1978
====================
winter work (1978-1979)
14/11/1978
Morning
squat max
3 @ 80 kg, 2 @ 90 kg, 1 @ 90 kg, 1 @ 100 kg, 2 @ 100 kg
lunge
3 x 10 @ 20 kg
work for feet
“traformation” working
i.e. skip
afternoon
sprint bouncing
4 x 60 m (8"20, 7"85, 7"78, 7"76)
alactic speed endurance
4 x 5 x 60 m, r.i. 1’30"/7’
(7"00, 6"80, 6"77, 6"80, 6"74/7"00, 6"94, 6"84, 6"80, 6"68/6"84, 6"84, 6"70, 6"76, 6"68/6"87, 6"88, 6"74, 6"70, 6"75)
lactic speed endurance
150, 200, 250 m (17"4, 24"22, 31"7)
250, 200, 150 m (31"2, 24"45, 17"55)
150, 200, 250 m (17"75, 24"70, 32"4)
r.i. 3’/15’
VOL = 3000 m!!!
15/11/1978
UpHill
3 x 100 m (14"45, 14"24, 14"45)
3 x 50 m (7"17, 7"13, 7"15)
3 x 100 m (14"28, 14"68, 14"45)
r.i. 2’/10’
3 x 120 m easy to medium speed
r.i. back to start
Lactic endurance
2 x 800 m (2’11"2, 2’12"4)
r.i. 10’
16/11/1979
cross
8,800 km
some strength work (chin up)
10 SLJ with belt
5 SLJ without belt
17/11/1978
alternating bounce
3 x 10 hops
6 sets (over 30 s)
hurdles hops:
10 x 7 hurdles
Speed endurance
300, 400, 300 (39"7, 55", 40"3)
300, 400, 300 (x, 58"7, 42"8)
200, 200 (25"8, 25"98)
r.i. 3’/10’
Note: hard work for plyo + tempo run!
18/11/1978
Morning
Weight:
squat max
3 @ 80 kg, 2 @ 80 kg, 2 @ 100 kg, 2 @ 110 kg, 2 @ 100 kg, 1 @ 110 kg, 3 @ 100 kg
lunge
3 x 10 @ 20 kg
“transformation work”
Afternoon
bouncing sprints
4 x 50 m (6"90, 6"70, 6"71, 6"53)
4 x 60 m (8"10, 7"16, 7"90, 7"88)
4 x 50 m (6"85, 6"56, 6"90, 6"70)
r.i. 6’
4 x 800 m (2’09", 2’18", 2’14", 2’15")
r.i. 10’
19/11/1978
Morning
Cross
5,5 km (last km in 3’45")
Afternoon
alactic speed endurance
5 x 60 m (6"95, 6"84, 6"85, 6"80, 6"90)
5 x 60 m (6"75, 6"82, 6"85, 6"87, 6"72)
5 x 60 m (6"81, 6"84, 6"88, 6"85, 6"80)
r.i. 1’30"/7’
lactic speed endurance
10 x 150 m
(17"35, 17"16, 17"18, 17"25, 17"30, 17"74, 17"50, 17"52, 17"58, 17"65)
20/11/1978
Alternating bounce
Triple: 8"50, 8"10, 8"60, 8"45, 8"85
quintuple: 13"75, 14"45, 14"40, 15"01, 15"05
10 x 7 hurdles (76 cm)
Kicking sprint
3 x 100 m (easy)
cross
3,3 km
21/11/1978
Morning
6 x 5 squat jump with loading (30 kg)
3 x 3 SJ (without loading)
work for calves
Afternoon
Specific strength
2 x 4 x 30 m sled dragging (4"62, 4"51, 4"45, 4"48/4"56, 4"54, 4"55, 4"55)
r.i. 3’/7’
2 x 4 x 30 m without sled (3"80, 3"78, 3"78, 3"75/3"80, 3"80, 3"79, 3"78)
Note: mennea classified this work out as easy
22/11/1978
alactic speed endurance
5 x 5 x 60 m
(6"90, 6"80, 6"90, 6"96, 6"88/6"85, 6"87, 6"75, 6"78, 6"80/6"85, 6"80, 6"78, 6"76, 6"74/6"83, 6"84, 6"82, 6"78, 6"76/6"87, 6"92, 6"85, 6"72, 6"80)
r.i. 1’30"/15’
lactic speed endurance
150, 200, 250 m (18"24, 24"60, 32")
250, 200, 150 m (31"45, 25"0, 18"15)
150, 200, 250 m (17"75, 24"65, 32"30)
r.i. 3’/8’
obvioulsy you come to it gradually, and it is even more obvious that, being sprint coaches, they both agree on the different strength abilities necessary to succeed and in working sspeed and elastic strength;however , as Vabo74 pointed out, the volumes are huge, and not just for champions, the low intensity days are still quite heavy, the use of many imitative exercises makes the 2 programs quite different…but they are still sprint coach and so the programs share lots of things…as soon as I can I’ll start some threads detailing the preparation of our sprinters.
Martn76, Do you personally employ the whole phylosophy ?
Rep points for that post.
I have seen those training sessions also. I have ALOT of literature on the above.
Yes and no. There is NO WAY I am going to apply the whole philosophy thats exactly my point. Mennea had four or five coaches collaborating to make him a champion plus the Italian school of sport and…Carmelo Bosco. I apply ALOT of their reasoning behind doing speed endurance and why certain reactive strength exercises are done. I question their use of high volumes also. Before I came across CF’s training I always delved into the Vittori et al literature. In 1997 I applied their SPP phase along with overspeed. My acceleration improved from 4.3 to 3.9 secs in two-three months. I would not apply ALL of their training because I found that in order to recover I somethimes had to have 3-4 days OFF from training. But like I said you have to apply to the individual. I also found that in order to do justice to the program, you have to do the SAME tests. You need an ergotester and linear encoder for that plus a sprint timer.
If you are going to follow such a program then you must do justice to that program, that includes the testing protocols. I would suggest that you modify it and use the good parts along with CFs philosophies to produce training programs that are sound. Charlie’s speed tempo,speed end tempo speed weekly plan along with Vittori’s specific bodyweight exercises and I know CF is against it, but it works. Overspeed (implemented with 10mm thick shock cord 40m in length) over JUST 20m to 30m with emphasis on pumping the arms. This, I found and find improves acceleration NOT TOP SPEED. The bounding and plyo ascribed by Vittori have specific uses look at them and use them to complement CF’s training philosophy.
If you are going to attempt the Vittori training sessions Its IMPERATIVE that you use the same testing protocols. That means buying an ergotester and sprint timer…very very costly.
main issue is that vittori’s ideas work only for Mennea
That’s the problem
in an interview, mennea stated that in 15 and plus years of carreer, he never pulled…
Vittori (and the other) had in their hand a freak of nature, that’s the truth.
I don’t believe that for one minute…thats a shame that you think that. Then you might as well give up.
You see, from what I understand you NEED to test with that kind of training because its so research led. Alot of the training for power is based on Bosco tests and research. Thats the bench mark. If you do not test and compare to the bench mark and CONTROL the volume and intensity according to the prescribed tests then it will not work.
The fact that you do not have Scuola dello Sport testing facilities available to you I assume should make you think twice about applying ALL of Mennea’s training in its entire form.
I think that Mennea’s training is its own worst enemy because Vittori et al gave SO much detail and description; and the fact that Mennea was very successful in comparison to other Italian athletes that people are only prepared to PRESCRIBE and not take and analyse why CERTAIN parts of the training worked.
I have read alot on sprint training. There are only a few camps that I take seriously because I believe that MOST of the information they have distributed is not fallacy and misinformation and the Italian literature by Vittori et al is one of those.
Thank you.
[QUOTE=martn76] I apply ALOT of their reasoning behind doing speed endurance and why certain reactive strength exercises are done. /QUOTE]
Could you share some more on this.
Thanks
Not so close to a major championships. I know he was injured, which is unfortunate, but a professional sportsman should not gain weight like that leading up to a major games.
Nobody can put on that much muscle in such a short space of time anyway, so what does that tell you about the weight he gained?