I’d like to see that video. I believe you, just wanna see it!
It was posted on this site ~2 years ago. It is from a Swedish documentary.
I think you should continue,that’s only 5 people which one could argue does not represent the MAJORITY of elite sprinters.
Also, let me ask you this, why would CF feel the need to work, say, his female sprinters up to 450lbs squats?
3 of the fastest ever is not enough? The only two people sub 9.7? Well you can add to the list Obadele Thompson, Kim Collins, and probably some others from SMTC along with Carl.
Charlie’s program can be great and utilize heavy lifting and squatting, but there are just as many or more that do minimal or no lifting (let alone squatting 2x bodyweight) and are quite successful. Most of the East Germans didn’t lift at all and they were pretty successful on the women’s side of things, so I think that goes to show you that it is the complete program–not just sections.
Maybe if Obadele Thompson would have squatted he wouldn’t have fell apart.
The East Germans!!! They came in with a bang in 1965 then fizzed out in the late 80s. Hmm, I wonder why?
REGARDLESS, the women were known at that time to be very strong and that’s the crux of my argument, strength relative to bodyweight plays a vital role in SHORT sprinting events.
Originally posted by fogelson
Tyson Gay
Asafa Powell
Usain Bolt
Carl Lewis
Wallace Spearmon
Should I continue? I agree that most probably have the talent/ability to do so if they were to change their training and begin to focus on it, but at any given time a large % of them cannot and many have not squatted double bodyweight to at least parallel. A lot of these guys don’t squat at all.
Most elite sprinters bench around 300lbs? Do we need to post the video of Asafa getting crushed by 1 rep @ 245lbs? And he is one of the biggest guys.
I agree with you on this point, but I recall charlie commenting on this fact earlier saying that just because they do not lift heavy doesn’t mean they cant. I think that alot of these guys just found different stimulus that possibly worked better for them than a heavy weights program. I also recall james saying that two players on his pitt team who run around a 4.2 40 don’t squat, so its obv not the be all end all
I have been training and competing in powerlifting over the last 1.5 years (getting back into sprinting now), and cannot agree at all with Westside being a safe way to train. Our club was split into two groups, one trained conventionally using linear or some form of wave-like periodisation (mainly working in the 3 to 5 rep range), the other group did Westside. Almost everyone in the Westside group got injured, while pretty much everyone in the conventional group stayed healthy. The guy leading the Westside training had actually visited the Westside gym a couple of times, so he definitely knew how the programme was supposed to work. Doing a large number of heavy singles in exercises you haven’t done for a long time (due to rotating the lifts) is the easiest way to get injured, as you are making your body exert maximum force in movements it isn’t used to. The overall volume of lifting is, moreover, too high for a drug free athlete, and a lot of exercises (e.g. super-wide box squats) is specifically designed for people lifting in multi-ply gear.
Yes, as I said, I’m sure many of these guys have the ability to (though I think that argument cannot be said for all), but the fact is they cannot at the time and would need a fair amount of specific work to do so. They don’t do the heavy lifting necessary to reach those abilities.
There are so many exercises better than both the traditional back squat and leg press.
Cycling sprints up a steep hill, will tend to add more hypertrophy to quads and upper thigh mass than squats.
Atlas stone lifts (and its variations) can enhance posterior chain power, significantly better than any barbell squats. Try them if you dont think so. If you don’t have Atlas stones, then use sand bags gafa taped together, or just put weight discs on a sleeve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTNKg_TGmEY&feature=related
For quadriceps, you could try hack lifts with a barbell. (not hack squat machine).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64PFHtq5XO8&feature=related Just use more weight than she’s demonstrating with, lol. You’ll use a similar weight loading in hack lift to what you would use in a barbell back squat.
Dorian Yates was a succesfull bodybuilder in the 90’s, and did not use squats (bcause of some hip issue he had) and it did not prevent him from developing one of the best legs of that era.
Podium deadlifts (of a podium atleast 8 inches high) will develope more hamstring mass than squat and leg press combined. But don’t use a snatch grip, as you might fatigue the upper back before hammies. Just use a straight down dead hang grip, and off a higher podium. You can use significantly less weight than a conventional dead from the floor, and still get more hamstring involvement.
Even smith machine squats can develope the quads as well as a barbell squat.
Depends what part of the thigh (or all of it) you are trying to strengthen.
I might add Bob Hayes to Fogelsons list. Even though Bob did not officially run sub 10, he ran 10.0 on a cinder track with comparatively heavy spikes on his feet. Plus a storming relay leg.
Konstantinos Kenteris ran 19.85 secs in to minus 0.5m headwing for 200m, don’t know if that counts.
Christopher lemeatre’ of France, ran 10.04 secs as an 18 year old junior, without weights. Though in a one of test, some one said he only powercleaned 50kg. Very skinny sprinter.
I understand what you’re saying… I guess, to be truthful, the reason why I love Westside is because it worked for me. I started to seriously lift in 2005 (drug free) which started out as a Joe Defranco program but then I went deeper into a beginners Westside template because I was not running track at the time.
I will never forget, pre 2005 I just went into the gym and did my own thing (or a BS muscle and fitness mag routine) and at that time I could only best a 285 squat for a few reps and 185 for a few reps in the bench and this was after years in the gym going back to my youth days hanging out in the gyms in the YMCA!
Well in 2007 (drug free), after using westside I was now reping 500lbs in the squat and 245 in the bench; and just last year got 275 (now working on 315). Even my old roomates saw the change in me (voice got deeper but I might have still been growing after 25 years of age) simply by changing THE WAY I trained.
Regardless, Westside to me is similar to the CFTS where it’s a program that’s engineered to bring out your full possable genetic potential; I just never had the chance to combine the two which I’m doing now. Wish I new this info 10 years ago!:mad:
So, as far as I’m concerned, it’s obvious some guys don’t need to train this way because they grow and get strong simply by picking up a fork!! I met a few guys (one guy is in the NFL now who I use to race) who had the size and strength of a grown man in high school! Well that wasn’t me and no program I ever used (even the BS programs from collage coaches) except Westside has ever helped me achieve a higher strength levels with minimal hypertrophy to boot.
As far as injury’s, I only squat once a week and do upper body twice a week. On my off days I eat healthy and do some kind of restoration work (use to do outdoor pool work which was great!). Another thing is that I left my ego at the door of the gym which means that if I felt I did not have it in me I did another exercise or maybe even just left the gym completely and zerped out in the shade under a palm tree… Because of this; I’m PROUD to say I have never been seriously injured from lifting heavy weights or from switching the main exercise every 3 weeks. (mind you, now that I’m sprinting I just stick to squats, bench and pull-ups to avoid getting sore)
I will admit, I have been lucky to see quite a few fast guys lift weights in front of my eyes who did not lift weights in the manner that I though would be necessary to run a fast time.
For example, I saw Coby Miller play around with 225 (he was injured at the time), saw a 100m UCLA 10.2 sprinter in 2003 play around with 225 (4-8 reps/sets), another 10.1 sprinter I know stays around 225 bench/315 squat, also trained with a 9.9 sprinter who I never saw bench more then 225 (he just did it for reps/sets) and I know of another 10.2/45.9 guy (with long arms and legs) who maxed out at 225 for reps/sets.
Most of these guys were around 170-180lbs.
Your experience notwithstanding, Westside is not dangerous. Box squats are not dangerous. Statisitics have shown that all forms of weight training are much safer than just about any type of running, and certainly safer than plyos. Its not a matter of safety, period. Its about getting as strong as you can (or need to) effeciently and effectively. Powerlifting squats are not for everyone, but they are effective at building limit strength and they are NOT dangerous.
Obviously false. Look at the worlds greatest cyclists and compare them to even amateur bodybuilders. If cycling hills built mass, bodybuilders would be doing them. They don’t.
Atlas stone lifts (and its variations) can enhance posterior chain power, significantly better than any barbell squats.
Obviously false again. The atlas stone uses more back than a deadlift, and neither build hip and upper thigh mass as well as a squat.
Dorian Yates was a succesfull bodybuilder in the 90’s, and did not use squats (bcause of some hip issue he had) and it did not prevent him from developing one of the best legs of that era.
He used leg press, and would have used squat if he could. He didn’t cycle and didn’t lift atlas stones.
Even smith machine squats can develope the quads as well as a barbell squat.
You have lost your mind.
I didn’t say weight training is dangerous, only that Westside training appears to be more likely to result in injury than more conventional strength training routines, especially when combined with sprint training. Rotating your heavy lifts around on a regular basis causes more soreness and stiffness than sticking to the same exercises for most of the season. Doing sprint training on sore and stiff muscles is likely to result in injury.
Moreover, unlike powerlifters, people training for the sprints do not need to reach their full strength potential in order to maximise their performance in the event they are competing in and are thus probably better off using a more basic lifting routine that a) leaves them with sufficient CNS reserves for their sprint training and b) doesn’t make them more likely to get injured.
I’m not aware of any studies comparing the incidence of injury amongst Westside lifters to that seen in people using other types of routines. Please let me know if you have seen such a study.
Appears to be? I don’t think so. Unless you’re trying to hit a 1RM on a regular basis (and even then not that dangerous) its no more dangerous than any other strength trainng using >85% loads.
Rotating your heavy lifts around on a regular basis causes more soreness and stiffness than sticking to the same exercises for most of the season.
I don’t think this is necesarily true, but it could be a concern if you you did really heavy training in season. Out of season I don’t think it will impact much as long as you sprint first and lift later.
Moreover, unlike powerlifters, people training for the sprints do not need to reach their full strength potential in order to maximise their performance in the event they are competing in and are thus probably better off using a more basic lifting routine that a) leaves them with sufficient CNS reserves for their sprint training and b) doesn’t make them more likely to get injured.
Again, the injury thing is a non-issue, and Westside is not so much about the loads, it about the rotation of exercises, and upper/lower body splits, and the ME, RE, DE splits. None of these conflict with strength training for a sprinter in the off season.
I’m not aware of any studies comparing the incidence of injury amongst Westside lifters to that seen in people using other types of routines. Please let me know if you have seen such a study.
No, I haven’t either, but then I’m not the one making claims about the safety of one vs the other.
And for the record, I don’t do straight Westside, nor do my lifters, but not for the reasons you suggest.
I related my experience in observing the incidence of injury amongst lifters using Westside vs. conventional training routines. You countered this by citing statistics, but now state that you are not actually aware of any relevant studies. In the absence of such studies, all I can go by is my experience.
Soreness from a new lift can last much longer than the 48h between sprint sessions advocated by Charlie. I’ve felt it for up to 5 (but more commonly about 3) days. Moreover, using Charlie’s methods you will be sprinting (e.g. hill sprints) during the off-season as well.
Look at the quadriceps of Chris Hoy (sprint track cyclist.) His quadriceps are clearly very well developed. Far more developed than 99% of people who do squats.
(I tried to insert image here, but it ended up at the bottom of this page.)
As for the bodybuilders you mention, don’t forget they are on much more juice and calories than every one else, with the goal to build size.
You probably thoguht I meant long distance cyclists like tour de’ france specialists or something. Well Duh, I meant the kilo sprinters inside the velodrome at the olympics. Their Quadriceps are more developed than most people who do squats.
Cycling up hills - sprints, added mass to my quadriceps quicker than any weight training exercise I have ever done. By cycling, I dont mean going for a leisurely 5 mile ride, like what you are thinking of. I mean doing 200m sprints up steep hilss, for example.
And by the way, former French cyclinst, ‘Chris Bursford’, had 33inch thighs., which is bigger than most pro bodybuilders.
Also, Tom Platz, rode his bike 22 miles to the gym, before comencing his famous squat work outs. If cycling wqas so detrimental to mass on the quads, do you not think the greatest thighs in the history of bodybuilding would have omited the bike ride?
The Atlas stones stretch the hamstrings more than barbell deadlifts, because youyr fingers have to go to floor level, when lifting an Atlas stone. Despite being experianced in Barbell deadlifts, my hamstrings were sore, the first day after Ilifted Atlas stones. You have obvously not considered the length-tension relationship, especially with the hamstrings.
If you’re going to be rude, and suggest I have lost my mind, just because I have pointed out facts, (that my own training results have prooven, and my observations of other confirm again), then maybe you have not considered as much as I.
As for pro-bodybuilders not using typical ‘strong man’ training equipment, don’t you realize that typica strong man props are just not as widely available in commercial gyms. Not because they don’t work (as you imply) but because gym owners have to play safe and just work with what they know, e;g;, a barbell and some basic machines.
Truck pulling would build the quadriceps bigger than squats, but nobody is going to install a friggin truck in their gym are they?
Yes, Jonah Lomu, built his 33inch upper thighs by pulling a metal roller (those things used to flatten the grass on rugby pitches), and he use it, the way some one else would use a sled pull.
Don’t lecture me about Dorian Yates. I’m the one that friggin mentioned him in the first place.
I mentioned him because he built his thighs without squats (an I also mentioned why he couldn’t get comfortable with squats - because of a hip issuehe had) and you practically repeated to em, what I had allready said about him.
- Don’t get rude with me, about ‘loosing the mind’, just because YOU can’t see past the dam Barbell back squat.
And Yes, the best bodybuilders used the machine squats as muych asd what they used the barbell squat. Fact. Just don’t cry about it, because to you the barbell back squat is something holy.
One or two individuals doesn not prove cycling builds quads better than squats. I can name dozens of current bodybulders with quad development never seen on a cyclist, ever. Any cyclists with legs like Platz?
As for the bodybuilders you mention, don’t forget they are on much more juice and calories than every one else, with the goal to build size.
Forbidden topic, but don’t pretend that problem only exists with bodybuilders.
You probably thoguht I meant long distance cyclists like tour de’ france specialists or something. Well Duh, I meant the kilo sprinters inside the velodrome at the olympics. Their Quadriceps are more developed than most people who do squats.
I go by the Superdrome in Frisco, TX with some regularity (near soccer fields and baseball field) and I see a lot of cyclists, but none that made me take a second look because of quad development.
And by the way, former French cyclinst, ‘Chris Bursford’, had 33inch thighs., which is bigger than most pro bodybuilders.
I googled Chris Bursford and found nothing. Even if it were true, I could give you the names of dozens of bodybuilders with much more impressive quads.
Also, Tom Platz, rode his bike 22 miles to the gym, before comencing his famous squat work outs. If cycling wqas so detrimental to mass on the quads, do you not think the greatest thighs in the history of bodybuilding would have omited the bike ride?
Funny, Tom rarely mentions biking for leg development, although almost every training picture you find is one of Tom doing heavy squats. Do you think if Tom did not do squats, he would have had the same quad development?
The Atlas stones stretch the hamstrings more than barbell deadlifts, because youyr fingers have to go to floor level, when lifting an Atlas stone.
Where do you get this stuff? If we’re talking stretch, what about straight leg deadlifts?
If you’re going to be rude, and suggest I have lost my mind, just because I have pointed out facts, (that my own training results have prooven, and my observations of other confirm again), then maybe you have not considered as much as I.
That comment was a joke, because the smith machine is a joke. And your observations proven nothing. Show me a statistical study that compares biking to squats, then we’ll talk about proof.
As for pro-bodybuilders not using typical ‘strong man’ training equipment, don’t you realize that typica strong man props are just not as widely available in commercial gyms. Not because they don’t work (as you imply) but because gym owners have to play safe and just work with what they know, e;g;, a barbell and some basic machines.
Truck pulling would build the quadriceps bigger than squats, but nobody is going to install a friggin truck in their gym are they?
Your deductive logic skills are lacking. If pulling a truck or lifting big round stones built thighs dramatically better than squats, then pro bodybuilders, who have access to strongman training equipment, would all be doing truck pulls, cycling, and liting big rocks. They don’t, because the squat is an easy, accessible, and very, very effective exercise for building mass and strength in the posterior chain.
Don’t lecture me about Dorian Yates. I’m the one that friggin mentioned him in the first place.
I mentioned him because he built his thighs without squats (an I also mentioned why he couldn’t get comfortable with squats - because of a hip issuehe had) and you practically repeated to em, what I had allready said about him.
He didn’t cycle, he didn’t pull trucks, he didn’t lift big rocks. He did traditional bodybuilding movements. He does not prove your point at all.
Don’t get rude with me, about ‘loosing the mind’, just because YOU can’t see past the dam Barbell back squat.
I was joking about that. Touchy. But please don’t pontificate unless you have some fraction of knowledge about the things you’re discussing. Look around. Powerlifters, Olympic lifters, bodybuilders all squat. Very few, if any, cycle or pull trucks to build mass. That should tell you something.
And Yes, the best bodybuilders used the machine squats as muych asd what they used the barbell squat.
No, they don’t. Bodybuilders use an array of exercises and equipment, but if you polled all top bodybuilders, probably 95% or more squat. Probably <10% cycle, unless its for cardio. Probably <1% lift stones or pull trucks. You do a better job of proving my case than proving your own. Here’s a quote from Chris Carmichael, one of Lance Armstrongs early coaches…
Contrary to contemporary belief, on-the-bike sprint training does not usually result in any significant increase in muscle mass. That being said, the first thing to realize is that you probably already possess the raw materials needed to fuel a powerful sprint. That is, you have muscle mass and some of you have lots of it. Odds are that you will see significant improvement by simply maximizing your motor unit synchronization, which is a fancy term to describe the process of learning to fire as many muscle fibers as possible simultaneously.
He’s seen hundreds of sprint cyclists, so I think he would know what he’s talking about.
Fact. Just don’t cry about it, because to you the barbell back squat is something holy.
No, not holy, but a damn good execise for posterior chain development. FACT: I’m not crying, I’m laughing, because you must have had a really bad experience in the gym to be going to such lengths to bad mouth what the vast majority of athletes use as the core exercise for posterior chain development.
Goose, lighten up. If you’re going to make statements like …
“There are so many exercises better than both the traditional back squat and leg press…Cycling sprints up a steep hill, will tend to add more hypertrophy to quads and upper thigh mass than squats…Atlas stone lifts (and its variations) can enhance posterior chain power, significantly better than any barbell squats. Try them if you dont think so. If you don’t have Atlas stones, then use sand bags gafa taped together, or just put weight discs on a sleeve.”,
…then be prepared to support that statement with fact, and not some anecdotal references to obscure individuals that don’t support your claims even if they can be found.
Australia has a great sprint cycling program. The link below leads to an article by Paul Rogers, the Strength and Conditioning Coach for the Australian National Sprint Cycling Team. They squat, leg press and do deadlift variations.