Leg Press

[100m001]

@Desideratus15

In a trap bar deadlift your legs are going through about a 1/4 squat. Compare this to the ROM your back is going through…your entire back is going to much more of a limiting factor.

You’re giving conflicting advice. Telling him to sit far back and remain upright is a nice way to fall over backwards. What kind of squat allows you to remain the most upright? An olympic, which is the squat you sit back the least. What kind of squat do you lean most forward? An equipped powerlifting squat, which is the squat you sit back the most. The more they sit back / lean forward the more they get out of their gear.

A great lift for whom? Everyone? Or geared powerlifters, which is all of Westside.

I just don’t understand all the negativity towards Westside? While I do agree that sprinters need to focus on sprinting, the fact remains that high level sprinters should AT LEAST handle 2x their body weight in the basic lifts, and with that said, I can’t think of a better system then Westside to teach youngsters how to handle heavy weight safely.

It’s safe because they use things like box squats which forces you to have good technique and trap bar dead lifts which are not as demanding as regular deadlifts and much safer for tall long limed athletes. It’s also safe because they frequently rotate basic lifts which allows you to avoid boredom and over use injuries of the same muscle groups.

[system]

@100m001

I just don’t understand all the negativity towards Westside? While I do agree that sprinters need to focus on sprinting, the fact remains that high level sprinters should AT LEAST handle 2x their body weight in the basic lifts, and with that said, I can’t think of a better system then Westside to teach youngsters how to handle heavy weight safely.

There are many sub 10 people who didn’t squat 2x bodyweight. Westside may be okay, but any form of progressive overload will teach someone how to handle plenty of weight for anything that isn’t powerlifting or weightlifting.

It’s safe because they use things like box squats which forces you to have good technique and trap bar dead lifts which are not as demanding as regular deadlifts and much safer for tall long limed athletes. It’s also safe because they frequently rotate basic lifts which allows you to avoid boredom and over use injuries of the same muscle groups.

Box squats are only safe if done correctly, just like any other lift. Plenty of people do a terrible job dropping down and bouncing off of boxes, just as plenty of people that abort many other lifts. Rotating lifts isn’t necessarily good for a sprinter and most people think you shouldn’t…

[100m001]

@Chupacabras

I’m interested to hear everyones opinion on using the leg press as an alternative to squats.

Me personally I only use the leg press for unilateral hypertrophy work. Regardless, I don’t like to use it for much else because the the way the machine is built it does most of the work for you which is why Body builders can stack the weight full AND have their friends stand on it and do that for reps/sets!

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2537988/ronnie_coleman_2300_lb_leg_press/

[rainy.here]

@100m001

Me personally I only use the leg press for unilateral hypertrophy work. Regardless, I don’t like to use it for much else because the the way the machine is built it does most of the work for you which is why Body builders can stack the weight full AND have their friends stand on it and do that for reps/sets!

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2537988/ronnie_coleman_2300_lb_leg_press/

Make no mistake. Ronnie Coleman, despite his hilarious weight room antics, is incredibly strong. My estimate based on the angle of the leg press in that video, is that there is about 1200lbs of force required to keep that that weight moving. Obviously this amount cannot be compared to other lifts, but it is a lot.

[Chupacabras]

@Desideratus15

The only reason the kid in the video seems upright is because he is rocking on the box. Take the box away from him, or take away his relaxing on the box and use of momentum, and he won’t be as upright.

Yeah I noticed the rocking, but the fact that he allows his knees to travel forward also allowed him to stay more upright than if his shins were kept perpendicular to the floor.

That’s why I posted the video. I wanted to know if I should allow my knees to move forward when doing box squats.

[Chupacabras]

@fogelson

There are many sub 10 people who didn’t squat 2x bodyweight. Westside may be okay, but any form of progressive overload will teach someone how to handle plenty of weight for anything that isn’t powerlifting or weightlifting.

Box squats are only safe if done correctly, just like any other lift. Plenty of people do a terrible job dropping down and bouncing off of boxes, just as plenty of people that abort many other lifts. Rotating lifts isn’t necessarily good for a sprinter and most people think you shouldn’t…

Agreed.

I’m not a sprinter, but I don’t like the idea of rotating lifts. Changing lifts regularly would cause soreness which would affect my skills training / running etc.

[star61]

@Desideratus15

…You’re giving conflicting advice. Telling him to sit far back and remain upright is a nice way to fall over backwards. What kind of squat allows you to remain the most upright?

The box squat, without question.

An olympic, which is the squat you sit back the least.
For a person of the OP’s stature, this is absolutely incorrect. It is very common for athletes of the OP’s stature to lean forward excessively in a free Olympic squat. That’s what he’s been doing, essentially, and he’s just told you it requires him to lean excessively.

What kind of squat do you lean most forward? An equipped powerlifting squat, which is the squat you sit back the most. The more they sit back / lean forward the more they get out of their gear.
He’s not wearing gear, so this is irrelevant.

The only reason the kid in the video seems upright is because he is rocking on the box. Take the box away from him, or take away his relaxing on the box and use of momentum, and he won’t be as upright.
He doesn’t SEEM to be upright, he is upright. And yes, if you took away the box he won’t be as upright…so why are trying to take away the OP’s box?
A great lift for whom? Everyone? Or geared powerlifters, which is all of Westside.
Great for everyone I know who has had issues with free squatting and who has given box squats a real try. The vast majority of these indivduals NEVER squat in gear…those that do squat in gear don’t use the box squat as much unless they are several weeks from a comp.

[hemann]

@Chupacabras

Did stretching your hamstrings actually fix the issue for you?

In my case, I feel that I can get into the correct position for squats, but due to my height / proportions there is more emphasis shifted towards the lower back than for someone with shorter femurs.

I can’t give you a solid answer on that. I still have minor back troubles… and I haven’t been able to loosen up my hamstrings very consistantly.

During last track season I actually became decently flexible (about 3" past my heels on a sit and reach) But during that time, I wasn’t doing any squatting. Coincidentally, I also became a lot faster. I was the fastest I had ever been in my life. I find it very difficult to gain strength and flexiblity because Im sore a lot. Maybe thats just me.

I really haven’t found a way to stretch my lower back. It kind of rounds when i squat deep- probably the cause of my back problems. I haven’t found the pain or the soreness enough of a negative to outweigh the benefits of squatting, so I continue to squat heavy.

[100m001]

@fogelson

There are many sub 10 people who didn’t squat 2x bodyweight. Westside may be okay, but any form of progressive overload will teach someone how to handle plenty of weight for anything that isn’t powerlifting or weightlifting.

Box squats are only safe if done correctly, just like any other lift. Plenty of people do a terrible job dropping down and bouncing off of boxes, just as plenty of people that abort many other lifts. Rotating lifts isn’t necessarily good for a sprinter and most people think you shouldn’t…

I’m REALLY not trying to be a smart a@@ but could you list the sub 10 people who DON’T lift under 2x body weight other then Kim who just retired?

Put it this way, the male sprinters who are house hold names are either buff and strong or just strong for their size. In general, I have found that most of the elite sprinters bench around 300lbs plus or minus and they squat AT LEAST 400lbs all around 170-190ish body weight range.

As far as rotating lifts, you are right in that it’s not advisable for sprinters.

[system]

Tyson Gay
Asafa Powell
Usain Bolt
Carl Lewis
Wallace Spearmon

Should I continue? I agree that most probably have the talent/ability to do so if they were to change their training and begin to focus on it, but at any given time a large % of them cannot and many have not squatted double bodyweight to at least parallel. A lot of these guys don’t squat at all.

Most elite sprinters bench around 300lbs? Do we need to post the video of Asafa getting crushed by 1 rep @ 245lbs? And he is one of the biggest guys.

[maris]

@fogelson

Tyson Gay
Asafa Powell
Usain Bolt
Carl Lewis
Wallace Spearmon

Should I continue? I agree that most probably have the talent/ability to do so if they were to change their training and begin to focus on it, but at any given time a large % of them cannot and many have not squatted double bodyweight to at least parallel. A lot of these guys don’t squat at all.

Most elite sprinters bench around 300lbs? Do we need to post the video of Asafa getting crushed by 1 rep @ 245lbs? And he is one of the biggest guys.

I’d like to see that video. I believe you, just wanna see it!

[system]

@maris

I’d like to see that video. I believe you, just wanna see it!

It was posted on this site ~2 years ago. It is from a Swedish documentary.

[100m001]

@fogelson

Tyson Gay
Asafa Powell
Usain Bolt
Carl Lewis
Wallace Spearmon

Should I continue? I agree that most probably have the talent/ability to do so if they were to change their training and begin to focus on it, but at any given time a large % of them cannot and many have not squatted double bodyweight to at least parallel. A lot of these guys don’t squat at all.

Most elite sprinters bench around 300lbs? Do we need to post the video of Asafa getting crushed by 1 rep @ 245lbs? And he is one of the biggest guys.

I think you should continue,that’s only 5 people which one could argue does not represent the MAJORITY of elite sprinters.

Also, let me ask you this, why would CF feel the need to work, say, his female sprinters up to 450lbs squats?

[system]

3 of the fastest ever is not enough? The only two people sub 9.7? Well you can add to the list Obadele Thompson, Kim Collins, and probably some others from SMTC along with Carl.

Charlie’s program can be great and utilize heavy lifting and squatting, but there are just as many or more that do minimal or no lifting (let alone squatting 2x bodyweight) and are quite successful. Most of the East Germans didn’t lift at all and they were pretty successful on the women’s side of things, so I think that goes to show you that it is the complete program–not just sections.

[Football28]

Maybe if Obadele Thompson would have squatted he wouldn’t have fell apart.

[100m001]

@fogelson

3 of the fastest ever is not enough? The only two people sub 9.7? Well you can add to the list Obadele Thompson, Kim Collins, and probably some others from SMTC along with Carl.

Charlie’s program can be great and utilize heavy lifting and squatting, but there are just as many or more that do minimal or no lifting (let alone squatting 2x bodyweight) and are quite successful. Most of the East Germans didn’t lift at all and they were pretty successful on the women’s side of things, so I think that goes to show you that it is the complete program–not just sections.

The East Germans!!! They came in with a bang in 1965 then fizzed out in the late 80s. Hmm, I wonder why?

REGARDLESS, the women were known at that time to be very strong and that’s the crux of my argument, strength relative to bodyweight plays a vital role in SHORT sprinting events.

[nkineavy23]

Originally posted by fogelson
Tyson Gay
Asafa Powell
Usain Bolt
Carl Lewis
Wallace Spearmon

Should I continue? I agree that most probably have the talent/ability to do so if they were to change their training and begin to focus on it, but at any given time a large % of them cannot and many have not squatted double bodyweight to at least parallel. A lot of these guys don’t squat at all.

Most elite sprinters bench around 300lbs? Do we need to post the video of Asafa getting crushed by 1 rep @ 245lbs? And he is one of the biggest guys.

I agree with you on this point, but I recall charlie commenting on this fact earlier saying that just because they do not lift heavy doesn’t mean they cant. I think that alot of these guys just found different stimulus that possibly worked better for them than a heavy weights program. I also recall james saying that two players on his pitt team who run around a 4.2 40 don’t squat, so its obv not the be all end all

[robin1]

@100m001

I just don’t understand all the negativity towards Westside? While I do agree that sprinters need to focus on sprinting, the fact remains that high level sprinters should AT LEAST handle 2x their body weight in the basic lifts, and with that said, I can’t think of a better system then Westside to teach youngsters how to handle heavy weight safely.

It’s safe because they use things like box squats which forces you to have good technique and trap bar dead lifts which are not as demanding as regular deadlifts and much safer for tall long limed athletes. It’s also safe because they frequently rotate basic lifts which allows you to avoid boredom and over use injuries of the same muscle groups.

I have been training and competing in powerlifting over the last 1.5 years (getting back into sprinting now), and cannot agree at all with Westside being a safe way to train. Our club was split into two groups, one trained conventionally using linear or some form of wave-like periodisation (mainly working in the 3 to 5 rep range), the other group did Westside. Almost everyone in the Westside group got injured, while pretty much everyone in the conventional group stayed healthy. The guy leading the Westside training had actually visited the Westside gym a couple of times, so he definitely knew how the programme was supposed to work. Doing a large number of heavy singles in exercises you haven’t done for a long time (due to rotating the lifts) is the easiest way to get injured, as you are making your body exert maximum force in movements it isn’t used to. The overall volume of lifting is, moreover, too high for a drug free athlete, and a lot of exercises (e.g. super-wide box squats) is specifically designed for people lifting in multi-ply gear.

[system]

@nkineavy23

I agree with you on this point, but I recall charlie commenting on this fact earlier saying that just because they do not lift heavy doesn’t mean they cant. I think that alot of these guys just found different stimulus that possibly worked better for them than a heavy weights program. I also recall james saying that two players on his pitt team who run around a 4.2 40 don’t squat, so its obv not the be all end all

Yes, as I said, I’m sure many of these guys have the ability to (though I think that argument cannot be said for all), but the fact is they cannot at the time and would need a fair amount of specific work to do so. They don’t do the heavy lifting necessary to reach those abilities.

[Goose232]

There are so many exercises better than both the traditional back squat and leg press.

Cycling sprints up a steep hill, will tend to add more hypertrophy to quads and upper thigh mass than squats.

Atlas stone lifts (and its variations) can enhance posterior chain power, significantly better than any barbell squats. Try them if you dont think so. If you don’t have Atlas stones, then use sand bags gafa taped together, or just put weight discs on a sleeve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTNKg_TGmEY&feature=related

For quadriceps, you could try hack lifts with a barbell. (not hack squat machine).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64PFHtq5XO8&feature=related Just use more weight than she’s demonstrating with, lol. You’ll use a similar weight loading in hack lift to what you would use in a barbell back squat.

Dorian Yates was a succesfull bodybuilder in the 90’s, and did not use squats (bcause of some hip issue he had) and it did not prevent him from developing one of the best legs of that era.

Podium deadlifts (of a podium atleast 8 inches high) will develope more hamstring mass than squat and leg press combined. But don’t use a snatch grip, as you might fatigue the upper back before hammies. Just use a straight down dead hang grip, and off a higher podium. You can use significantly less weight than a conventional dead from the floor, and still get more hamstring involvement.

Even smith machine squats can develope the quads as well as a barbell squat.

Depends what part of the thigh (or all of it) you are trying to strengthen.

I might add Bob Hayes to Fogelsons list. Even though Bob did not officially run sub 10, he ran 10.0 on a cinder track with comparatively heavy spikes on his feet. Plus a storming relay leg.

Konstantinos Kenteris ran 19.85 secs in to minus 0.5m headwing for 200m, don’t know if that counts.

Christopher lemeatre’ of France, ran 10.04 secs as an 18 year old junior, without weights. Though in a one of test, some one said he only powercleaned 50kg. Very skinny sprinter.