Lactate Threshold Training

Every peak was different, every athlete was different. But when the athlete had a relatively trouble-free preparation and training times were good and competitions were available, I would be happy enough to cut 400m racing off inside a three-week period prior to the first round of a multi-round championship.

Unfortunately, at times, the national federation would organise relay meets against other national teams and sometimes one or other of the athletes I was coaching would be obliged to compete inside that 3-week exclusion zone.

Coming into Seoul, off a terribly injury-plagued preparation, my top male raced only two domestic 400m (failing to break 47), then raced Verona, Hechtel and Sestriere (failing to break 46sec). It was only after CF intervened with some seriously deep massage and this was then picked up by the national team physio that the source of the pain was identified as a calcified nodule on a nerve in his hamstring. Once that was dispersed through massage (second-knuckle-deep into the tissue) he could at last break 11.5sec for 100m without feeling his hammy was about to be shredded. The next day in Cologne, where we had bumped into CF and Ben et al, he was able to go 10.5 on grass and not feel a thing. That was the cut-off day to commit for the Olympics, so it was dramatic and I cannot tell you how stressful the whole experience was that year.
But to answer the question, his last race was in Sestriere on August 11 and the first round in Seoul was September 24.

The top female ran her last 400m in Cologne which would have been around mid-August that year?? Her next 400m was the Olympic first round, which was again around September 24 (give or take a day).

So when they ran their fastest times for 400m it was actually off a break of nearly six weeks from the previous 400m race.

Before the Comm Games, he had run some 400m races up to and including December 2, followed by a training period which led to him time-trialling over 300m on Dec 31. Off a three-step rolling start, he ran 32.07manual (splitting 200m in 20.15) , then backed up with a rollstart 200m in 20.04sec. The next day he cramped in his left lower adductor. Great start to the new year.

He was still nursing that sore spot when the national federation obliged him (on fear of being dropped from the Games team) to run a 4x400 relay on January 14. He split 45.9 off a careful opening 200m in 22.23.
Games 400m first round (and second round) was January 27.
So his last 400m race off the blocks before the Games was December 2. That’s about eight weeks before the tournament. However it’s only two weeks if you count the relay. :slight_smile: kk

Oh, so you’ve read my posts then :confused: :eek: :stuck_out_tongue:

Oh, right. You meant 400m training . . . or not

Anyway, the website is up and running
http://www.kitkat.com/

Ok, I figured out basically about how I’m going to do my program, but I need some help in converting some things.

These workouts were made for a 46-second quarter miler. This would be a sample workout week For “Early Season” or GPP. I’m just going to list the track work for the days:

Mon:

  1. 2x500 Speed: 70 sec (56 sec/400m pace)
    Rest 15 min.
  2. 3x200m Speed: 30-29-28 Rest 3 minutes

Tues:

  1. 8x200m Speed: 28 sec Rest: 3 minutes
  2. 6x150 long-hill runs. Speed: “fast” Rest: jog back
    Weights

Wed:

  1. 4x300(event run). Speed 42 sec. Rest: 5min.
  2. 3x200m Speed: 30-29-28sec Rest: 3 min.
  3. Rope resistance runs (know what to do about these)

Thurs:
1x350m Speed: fast Rest: 15 min.
4x200m Speed: 26 sec. Rest: 5 min.
Weights

Fri:

  1. 3x200 Speed: 30-29-28 sec. Rest: 3 min.
  2. 1600m work

Sat: Meet

Ok, now I dont know what part of the week this was in the schedule, only know it was a sample week from “Early Season” or GPP I assume.

I assume this schedule doesnt follow the High Intensity/Low intensity schedule either, am I correct?

Again, if you could please tell me how to convert these workout for a person aiming for a 50-sec 400m time, that would be great. I think I know how to, but am not positive about it. Also, looking at samples from the rest of the season, the times are lower in them towards the end. So I guess, I really need to know what a good starting point would be for these time wise. I assume rest times are universal for all runners.

Also, I hope to post my plans for GPP which will begin in February for critiquing, like how to progress the scheme.

You’re going to train five days straight like this and race on Day 6 . . . to run 50sec?

Some of rep 200 work (eg 8x200 in 28sec off 3min) is already aiming at 50sec or a bit slower (maybe 52sec).

Are you really going to race off this week? Or just pick sample sessions and integrate into your own program design?

All these sessions are fine . . . just a matter of how you progress them and how you cycle through the work to avoid dynamic stereotype (stuck in the same rhythm) and how you come to develop all the other performance threads.

Looks like a pretty traditional wide base pyramid model (modified to “race” off - longer reps and more, slower volume at the start of the week, progressing to “faster” reps and less of them at the end of the week.

Good luck with it all then.

No, this was just a sample week from a thing I was reading. The times and schedule change, through four different parts (Off season, Early Season, Mid Season, and Late Season). Again, this is just an example of a workout week of something I was just reading from “Early Season”, not my plan. I plan on trying to hit a 50 or better by the end of the season. Meets wont start until late or after midseason.

No, I dont plan on even doing meets until after or late midseason.

I am going to pick and choose from the information I have and sample weeks for my own program. My program may not look anything like this, but will have the same sessions in it. I think I will go for a high intensity/low intensity type schedule.

On this schedule, which would be better for a 400/200m athlete. A wide base pyramid model, or high intensity/low intensity type schedule?

Also, if there wasn’t a meet on this week, would the pyramid be flipped? Meaning would the faster sessions be at the beginning of the week, and the slower volume towards the end? Sorry, not familiar with how that type of thing works.

I’m really not comfortable with that sort of broad-based pyramid structure for a sprints program. I know they’re traditional and they apparently work well, especially in the US - although I suspect the fierce collegiate competition program is the basis for much of the success of such training.

Anyway to answer you, it looks like it’s having a bet each way - the 150m hills would be helpful for 200m, which of course would in part be helpful for the 400m, but then again it depends what you want out of the hills in the overall scheme of things. The repeat 200s and the 500 runs are more in keeping with 400m training. Put it this way - Michael Johnson could run well of this over 200 and 400, but then again he’d have run well off of anything :slight_smile:

Having said all of that, I’ll probably keep commenting to keep the thread ticking over but this sort of traditional pyramid stuff doesn’t interest me so I’ll be limited in my posts (which will delight many)

Hey KitKat & others,
I ran the 400 tonite. My real events are 200, LJ, and 55 dash. I ran the 400 since there was no 200 and I wanted to see what I can run. I ran 4x4’s in college sometimes and my best time outdooRs is 49.9.

Anyhow, I ran a bit slower than I expected. I ran 51.50 on a banked track out of lane 3.
I came through the first 200 in 23.6. Is that too fast for my current 200 level? 2 weeks ago I ran 22.74.

I came back in a slow 27.7. My 300 split was 37.2 and I finished in 14.1. To make things simple I ran …

23.6/ 27.7 =51.3h =51.50FAt
23.6/ 13.6= 37.2 +14.1=51.3 H

I came throught the 200 very quick but semi comfortable and tried to relax and maintain and at 150 I could not go any fast and was dead the last 80.

Anyhow. As I said Im not a quarter miler but I have been doign a bit of lactate work and longer speed work. Just trying to get yoru opinion on my run and what you make of this. Too fast to go out etc.?

Hi Quik,
FIRSTLY this really should be posted on the forum because there are others with much more indoor experience than me. Sight unseen, as they say, it’s so hard to know what went wrong or if anything did . . . maybe your “flow efficiency” isn’t good, maybe you came in with a slight virus which wouldn’t show up unless you were racing to the limits in a teardown 400m, maybe you haven’t done enough come-home training aimed at the final 100m of the 400m, maybe your technique on the bends wasn’t too good (dropped left hip)…so many variables…
I usually suggest that 1sec reserve time from your current 200m PB to your 400m race split time at 200 is about right and that’s what you’ve done here. But that advice is based on doing all the rest of “my” program, so that at least I know you would have done the comehome work. . .

Maybe if you had video you could post and CF or PJ could view and advise. My pute at home (I’m on vacation) won’t handle video. Not gutsy enough - the computer not you :smiley:

I have a question about a point that was brought up earlier in this thread. It was about that people believe Lactate Threshold work can have a negative effect on younger people, but there was no mention when people believe that believed problem ends.

Is the age of 18 when the worry of that problem ends? What is the age most people believe is ok to do lactate threshold work without problems?

Comancho,
You are very safely outside of the age danger zone . . . but just keep in mind that the 400m is above all else still a Sprint.

You must strongly develop your speed qualities and then integrate speed endurance, strength, flexibility, technique into the plan.

But short and long term, you must emphasise speed and keep returning to it. A 400m athlete without serious sprinting ability is a middle distance runner.

I like middle distance :smiley: “Serious sprinting ability” and “Competent sprinting ability” is what separates middle distance from everyone else.

Quik:
This is an adaptation from the Czech Model table for 400m (based on the hundreths races they analysed since the late '70s so you can count on that it is the most reliable on the market :stuck_out_tongue: ) :
11.9 - 22.9 - 34.8 - 48.0 (11.9 + 11.0 + 11.9 + 13.2)
12.1 - 23.3 - 35.4 - 49.0 (12.1 + 11.2 + 12.1 + 13.6)
12.3 - 23.6 - 36.0 - 50.0 (12.3 + 11.3 + 12.4 + 14.0)
12.5 - 24.0 - 36.6 - 51.0 (12.5 + 11.5 + 12.6 + 14.4)
12.7 - 24.3 - 37.2 - 52.0 (12.7 + 11.6 + 12.9 + 14.8)
The times are electric rounded.

If you are a 600-800m type of runner, you can go a little faster than the model, if you are a 100-200m type (your case) you have to go a little slower. If you go too fast for the first half, you’ll hit your speed reserve and since you don’t have the specific 400m endurance in place (i suppose) you won’t be able to resist to fatigue in the last straight.

From the Model and taking in account the small deviation due to your short sprint background, you can see that your split at 200m was a little too fast, your last bend too conservative because you were afraid of pain the last straight, and your last straight time is very good. Remember than anyway, fast or slow last bend, the pain will be the same in the last straight, so don’t think and run. All this assuming your splits are accurate.

[i]Every peak was different, every athlete was different. But when the athlete had a relatively trouble-free preparation and training times were good and competitions were available, I would be happy enough to cut 400m racing off inside a three-week period prior to the first round of a multi-round championship.

Unfortunately, at times, the national federation would organise relay meets against other national teams and sometimes one or other of the athletes I was coaching would be obliged to compete inside that 3-week exclusion zone.

Coming into Seoul, off a terribly injury-plagued preparation, my top male raced only two domestic 400m (failing to break 47), then raced Verona, Hechtel and Sestriere (failing to break 46sec). It was only after CF intervened with some seriously deep massage and this was then picked up by the national team physio that the source of the pain was identified as a calcified nodule on a nerve in his hamstring. Once that was dispersed through massage (second-knuckle-deep into the tissue) he could at last break 11.5sec for 100m without feeling his hammy was about to be shredded. The next day in Cologne, where we had bumped into CF and Ben et al, he was able to go 10.5 on grass and not feel a thing. That was the cut-off day to commit for the Olympics, so it was dramatic and I cannot tell you how stressful the whole experience was that year.
But to answer the question, his last race was in Sestriere on August 11 and the first round in Seoul was September 24.

The top female ran her last 400m in Cologne which would have been around mid-August that year?? Her next 400m was the Olympic first round, which was again around September 24 (give or take a day).

So when they ran their fastest times for 400m it was actually off a break of nearly six weeks from the previous 400m race.

Before the Comm Games, he had run some 400m races up to and including December 2, followed by a training period which led to him time-trialling over 300m on Dec 31. Off a three-step rolling start, he ran 32.07manual (splitting 200m in 20.15) , then backed up with a rollstart 200m in 20.04sec. The next day he cramped in his left lower adductor. Great start to the new year.

He was still nursing that sore spot when the national federation obliged him (on fear of being dropped from the Games team) to run a 4x400 relay on January 14. He split 45.9 off a careful opening 200m in 22.23.
Games 400m first round (and second round) was January 27.
So his last 400m race off the blocks before the Games was December 2. That’s about eight weeks before the tournament. However it’s only two weeks if you count the relay. kk[/i]

kk

considering the seoul prep and build up it shines new light on how impressive an athlete and competively tough he really was…

before our major peak of the year our national U/23 championships 11 weeks away we have set down our meets as follows.
week 10 - (just gone) 2 x 400m races
week 11 - country champs 400 x 1 on sat, 200m x 1 on sun
week 8 - state U/23’s titles 400m
week 5 - 400m nationals, 24-25 days aways

with last weeks 2 hard races i prefered she only ran one of the races this coming weekend but as its on home track she is determined to race after some improved performances in recent weeks.

so in order to get through this period of 4 races in 9 days we have planned the week out as follows after sat nights 400
sun - walk stretch
mon - tempo 2 x 6 x 100m abs and push ups
tues - 4 x 40 sub max, weights
wed - rest
thurs - race model work inc 1 x 80m working onto bend @ RP.
fri - rest

is the tuesday session to light?

PJ,
I appreciate that post.
My race was actually done indoors.
You said… “your last bend too conservative because you were afraid of pain the last straight, and your last straight time is very good”.

Now let mew explain to you the race and how it felt. I came through the first lap (200m) in 23.5 which is exactly what I have been running in training. Although this is fast and comfortable for the first lap my body knows this pace quite well. I came through in that time unchallenged as well. I was 20 meters ahead of the pack. When I hit the 200 meter mark I was trying to stay relaxed until I got onto the straightaway (150m left) and then hoped to start picking up the tempo gaining momentum for the final 100. It just wasn’t there. I could do nothing. I found myself trying to hang onto that pace and with 100 left I was dead. I had nothing left and trying to maintain my turnover using my quads with a shortened stride. I felt helpless as I glanced up at the clock beofre I cross the line in 50, then 51 and I was finally done.

What do you make of this? If I went out in 24.0 would I been able to come home 1 second faster than I have (26.5 instead of 27.7)? Just curious on your thoughts.

While it is unlikely that I will run the 400 anytime soon the 200 is the event I am looking to break my indoor pr of 22.54 in. Two weeks ago I ran 22.74.
In training anytime I run full 300’s for special endurance I ALWAYS run between 36.3-36.6. Tomarrow I plan on doing split 300’s aimed at improving my 200. Is this a good idea? Earlier in the season I ran this workout with 90 secs rest between reps and hit…on DEC 7TH INDOORS

23.6/12.2 =35.8
23.9/12.4 =36.3
24.4/12.6 =37.0

AND ON DEC 19TH INDOORS

23.1/12.2 =35.3
23.6/13.0 =36.6

I was planning on doing the same session but this time with 1 minute rest instead of 90 seconds. The other workout I plan on doing this week is 3x3x80 with 90" between reps and 3’ between sets.
Is there any sessions you can see me benifiting from to better my 200 time.
The weekly setup when I have 3 workouts per week has been Session #1 Split Runs Session #2 Accel/Max V Session #3 Split run speed end i nthe form of 3x3x50 or 80.

thanks.

with last weeks 2 hard races i prefered she only ran one of the races this coming weekend but as its on home track she is determined to race after some improved performances in recent weeks.

so in order to get through this period of 4 races in 9 days we have planned the week out as follows after sat nights 400
sun - walk stretch
mon - tempo 2 x 6 x 100m abs and push ups
tues - 4 x 40 sub max, weights
wed - rest
thurs - race model work inc 1 x 80m working onto bend @ RP.
fri - rest

is the tuesday session to light?[/QUOTE]

You might take that Tuesday session out as far 150 with impunity. I used a session something like 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 (all walkback and go when ready), then fast tempo 150, walk back and 60, 50, 40, 30, 20. Holding back from maximum speed on all reps, but in Seoul the top female did PB’s for Every rep.

I used that session because she was a volume monster. If there were only a few reps she’d think she was under-done and would get worried, lose confidence etc. So this was my way around that little issue.

But if your girl looks tired in the warmup, I’d stick with what your scheduled. Or if she’s coming in off a light base, then maybe also avoid at this late stage doing too much volume.

Thank you for the answer. I fully understand that 400m is a sprinting event, just curious what age would be safe for lactate threshold work.

I will be turning 18 in February.

Anyways, what would be the lowest age one could do it at safely, just out of interest?

Quik, the thing is that in any case, with a 37.2 split, there’s little hope to run under 51sec. A sub37 (36.8-36.9 hand time) sounds perfect for you) was needed and from what you describe you felt asleep in somewhere in the 200-300m section, and the fact that you were 20m ahead of the pack didn’t helped. Indorr Track designs vary, but after the 200m point (you said you tried to stay relax at this point), there’s a slight hill that’s maybe where you lost time.

I don’t understand the workout you did on 07Dec and 19Dec. Was it 200m in 23.6, rest 90sec, and 100m in 12.2? I may be able to reply after you describe these workouts.

Now that you mention it it does seem like my 300 split was a bit slow. Yes the workout I described was split 300’s off of 90 seconds rest.
Then here are my other split workouts…

Jan 2nd
2 x (200+200)
Rest 2" Rest 20’

23.5/ 25.3 =48.8
24.8/ 25.6 =50.4

Jan 19
23.6/ 24.9 =48.5
24.1/ 25.3 =49.4

You seem to be a fan of split runs :slight_smile:

I noticed that during split runs the stride length doesn’t decrease (or just a little), while a 10% decrease in stride length occurs during a 400m. That’s why i’m perplexed if split runs only can be a good tool to simulate 400m fatigue, prepare the usefull resistance and predict 400m performances. It should be add in a complex system with other test with long continuous races like 500m or repetitions at 300m and 400m with short rests.

As for improving your 200m, i suggest you use longer rests between distances ranging from 150m and 300m (where the speed reached will be closer to the competition speed).