I agree. 200m jog. Although you could start off with walks and/or split them into 2 sets etc… 4-6x200 with 200m jog recovery was the end result before reducing reps.
Quick question - does anyone do an anaerobic lactic session 24-48 hrs after a speed alactic session? I missed the indoor season and am hoping to compete this outdoor season. I have been conditioning all winter with a schedule like this - Su- speed drills/plyos/weights/Mon - tempo work/Tue rest/Wed - speed drills/plyos/weights, Thursday - tempo, Fri/Sa off. I’d like to be better prepared for the 200m and possibly a 400 so was thinking this split.
Saturday - speed drills (speed under 8 seconds)/Plyos/Weights, Sunday - off/light tempo, Monday - anaerobic lactic power - (40-60sec stuff), Tuesday - tempo, Wednesday - speed drills/pylos/weights/ - Thursday tempo, Friday off. This will change again as I get outdoors more and can get longer track workouts in. I am 50 and last competed in March 2010 (tore hamstring last race of the WMA M45 60m in Kamloops)
Thanks
Hi Trevor. 24 vs 48 hrs recovery is pretty big difference. At the moment my schedule preparing for 400m outdoors (main competition 8th of July) looks like this. Sun - speed like flys/weights / Mon - special end/ Tue - easy day / Wen - Strength End (high knees) / Thur - plyos/weights (no sprinting) / Fri - Special End / Sat - rest.
Looking at this schedule there is 24 hours recovery between speed, plyos, weights days and special end days. I know it might look risky and there might be recovery issues with such schedule. However, I use this schedule b/c it’s still early preparation and my special endurance workouts are not very fast and I run them in running shoes. The fastest was 5x200 2min recovery in 26sec indoors, other workouts at around 28-29sec 200m speed, so very near tempo pace but metabolically demanding. Still cold outside so at the moment still stuck indoors. For this reason I do Wen high knees like 2 x 4 x for 45sek, it’s hard but easier on my legs and easier on CNS. Later I need to change that schedule b/c special end workouts will become faster so would be hard to do one day speed and next fast special end. I ran my two best seasons when doing similar schedule, just my most special endurance workouts were done on forest track in running shoes (just speed drills on hard track in spikes), so overall stress was lower.
However, I’m still 29 and you are 50. You need more recovery for your joints, muscles,tendons so 24 hours rest would be too risky and not worth doing in my opinion. If you manage to control overall volume of your weekly schedule so doing speed one day and special end after 48 hours is ok.
I don’t want to hijack the thread, but I would like to get some input form the kitkat followers on CF.com concerning the following training session which is very closely linked to the sessions being described in this thread. Question…what is your realisitic opinion on anyone being able to perform the following session, or anything close to it:
6 x 250 @ 90% off of 90secs rest
Considering the difficulty many express with kitkat type sessions of 6 x 200 at come home (which with anyone I have worked with is something less than a 90% pace), this just doesn’t seem like a session many, if any, athletes can work through. The extra 50m, plus the increase in pace, even if it is just the difference between 87-88% and 90%, seems excessive. Anyone with experience with these type of sessions have an opinion? And I would love to here kitkat’s view on this.
Thanks,…
Having gone through two KitKat GPP blocks this indoor season (6 weeks x 2) plus the 4 week transition phase, then working through an 8 week CF based mixed short to long program (which included some 400 maintenance work [2x 200+200 and the like once per week]), I can’t imagine being able to complete 6x250 with 90 seconds rest at anywhere close to 90% pace.
I know lots of American coaches love to go from intensive to extensive tempo as the season progresses, but I’ve never seen the rest below 2 minutes or the intensity above 80% to 85% at the absolute max for the above type of workout.
KitKat has a 3x3x300 workout with one minute between each 300, but it’s broken into three sets with 3 minutes or more between each set (at least the way I ran it, I took 4 minutes between sets). I ran it at around 80% though. Keep in mind I’m a masters guy and am by no stretch of the imagination “elite,” but did go through his full GPP / transition and it really, really worked for me. My 300 time dropped by around three seconds overall (42.5 hand timed to around 39.5 hand timed), and I ran almost a half second PB indoors in the 200.
What would the purpose of the proposed 6x250 with 90 seconds rest at 90% workout be?
Thanks Linas. Right now the anaerobic lactic power stuff is just 90-95% efforts with long 5-6min rest and not in spikes yet. Has been a mixture of modalities just to work that energy system. When it gets specific to running and in spikes I’ll make sure it allows for 48+ hours.
There was some discussion about using some very intense sessions to build up work capacity, etc., and it evolved into the discussion of the 6 x 250 @ 90% off of 90 secs. This session was met with some raised eyebrows, including mine, but I wanted to hear the opinions of others, especially on this board, who are more familiar with kitkat’s workouts and might have a more educated opinion of such a workout.
Thanks…
In conversations with the long time forum member Clemson, he likes 6x250 for developing capacity to handle 200m in rounds. It’s close to 90% but I think the rest is a bit longer. I feel the 6x200 serves both 200 and 400 runners.
Doing 5-6x200 building to 200m jog recovery is quite difficult and requires a very high level of fitness. Currently I have one runner who did 6x200 in 26 off 2 min rest. Next week will start the jog recovery. It’s possible we will do every other-jog recovery building to every rep over the next 10 weeks.
I have used this WO alot. But I was always a bit hesitant to start right off as KK does. We kind of used a C Hart system 12x200 @32 r=2 gradually decreasing until I thought our guys were ready to handle 24or 25 sec runs. (our guys are 46-47runners) I’d really like to try going at it much earlier in the training year . Has anyone else started straight away with goal times?
From P7 http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?11082-The-way-of-the-quot-400-quot-Thanks-to-KK/page7 courtesy of Top Cat
[i]To achieve the 5-6x200m for a developing quarter miler you will probably have to go through a progression like:
3x200m
2x200m [5min] 2x200m
3x200m [5min] 2x200m
3x200m [5min] 3x200m
5x200m
6x200m
Doing this session once a week it usually takes 2 sessions at each progression to achieve target times. Depending on the athlete’s endurance qualities they may need more than 5min between sets.[/i]
John,
You are awesome for digging that up. I went straight into 6x200 last year my first time through KitKat’s GPP. I didn’t find out about the above post until it was too late! Great progression by TopCat, I’m going to try it this year.
Ted,
I think it depends on the athlete’s fitness level. Last spring, I had a few guys coming off XC season handle 6x200, it just wasn’t fast yet. They were able to recover quickly between runs. However, a sprinter with limited fitness, may need to have that run split up, with one potential progression above.
I’ve had guys go at it to find out what they could do. When they hit their limit I’d stop and know where to progress from there. Some times I’ve had guys do 4 at pace and die a horrible death at #5. I would then aim to work towards doing 5 in a row for this situation.
ESTI,
Yes there is no way our 46-47 guys could go right into [EMAIL="5-6x200@24/25"]5-6x200@24/25[/EMAIL] r=2. Maybe we will look at topCats progression.
We have after several months of GPP done WO’s like 3x200@25-24-24 R=2and 1. With 10 min rest btwn sets 1rst set in trainers 2nd set in spikes on an indoor track. This kind of gets us ready ror the 5-6x200@24/25. Which is something we have really only tried a few times.
Let me fix the last post The WO we do in the winter 2x3x200@25-24-24.Should actually be 25-25-24. Later in the spring we would go 25-24-24. The one sec faster on the 2nd rep makes a big difference.
I always aim to jog a recovery over the same distance as the rep: run 200m, jog, 200m, run 200m etc. I aim to cover the jog component in 2mins or under. Some athletes, particularly those moving up from a 100m competitive background, needed to walk every part of every recovery. But eventually, if only in the second year, they moved to jogging some or all of the recoveries
We tried it on grass first following a good GPP with decent tempo sessions. 5x200m on grass starting with 5 mins recovery then whittled it down a bit, then switched to the track with 4x200m at come home pace with 2 1/2 mins recovery. After a few sessions my male under 20 was doing 5 reps with 2mins recovery, much of it walked to protect his shins.
One of my athletes is doing this at the moment, and has just finished week 4 - that 2 x 2 x 200m. It was the first week we haven’t been affected by wind, he started off a second quicker than planned and his last rep was 2 seconds slower than planned. Although not unhappy with that.
The one thing I am trying is the first week of the progression (the progression si 12 weeks remember, 2 weeks on each one) I do a walk recovery, and the second week is the jog recovery. Seems to be able to handle the load slightly better at the moment.
One of my athletes did his first 400m for the season. Last season he run 55.6. He has missed about 8 weeks of full training aver the last 5 months due to being an idiot…
On Thursday he did 2 x 3 x 200m with jog recovery and 5 minutes between sets. 1st set all done in the 27’s the second set all 30’s
After running a 100m in 12.19 (PB is 12.18), he run a 400m in 54.44 and came home well. The winter of hills has worked.
He also finished University exams on Wednesday (he is sitting on a 90% average)
We have been doing max speed SPP (as per CF video) and some hills and now 6 x 200’s session. Competition is his special endurance work.
The work, modifying KK’s work, has been working.
I used kk programme last year after a few tweaks, using a revolution of the phases, starting in November run through to April, including an indoor phase in feb.
Worked rather well with all my young athletes producing PBs and the older ones (including myself) running better times then the past 4/5 years.
For this year, I have amended the programme further incorporating a few other elements I felt we’re missing, funnily enough this was top end and actual vo2 and threshold work.
Split into 4 6week phases each with a 4week specific element and then 2weeks of standard tolerance training. Culminating in a 4 week phase prior to the season.
I have high hopes with the programme and is working well so far, but first test is indoor feb and then of course the outdoor
Hi there,
I’m interested in what your program looked like from November to April. My athletes started in October and are going to do a double periodized season, with an indoor phase mostly in late January and February (and early March perhaps), rolling into an outdoor peak at the end of June.
What are the workouts that you’ve added? I don’t find that anything is missing in KitKat’s program, it is a very carefully planned GPP. I found that the 60 and 150 times were fairly static until the transition phase, where they came down dramatically. There doesn’t appear to be enough lactic speed in the program, but when you look at the GPP and how you aren’t doing a ton of bullshit slogging with long runs, 600’s, etc. and are pretty much moving fast from day one, I think it mostly makes up for the lack of alactic work results-wise. My guy went from a 49.06 PB years back to 47.51 PB within 13 weeks- that was off a single GPP, transition, and racing, moving right into a taper.
What do the workouts look like that you added in for top end and actual VO2 and threshold work? What did workouts you delete if you added in those workouts?
Looking forward to your comments.