KellyB!

Ok I am trying to decipher the whole DB Hammer thing.

  1. Ok so from my understanding he is all about the nervous system and likes to divide workouts based on its different characteristics, these being neuro rate, neuro magnitude, and neuro duration, as well keeping all them all seperate.

  2. Ok so as far as I can tell he overcomplicated methods and I think I have figured out his terms

  3. a)PIM is the transition between the stretch portion in the eccentric action of the lift and the beginning of the eccentric, so basically the bottom of the lift b) and I still dont know what the CJC is

  4. And he divides exercise methods based upon these different categories listed below.
    Neuro Rate

  5. Speed exercises with very small amount of hip flexon involved, high RFD and force involvment(depth jumps, altitude landings, box jumps, max v sprints, things of that nature)

Neuro Magnitude

  1. Exercises of a slower nature, more strength oriented(acceleration from down position, concentric only moves, weighted versions of some of the neuro rate exercises, like weighted altitude landings, jumps from a bottom position)

Neuro Duration

  1. Exercises that last longer(isometrics, accentuated eccentrics, and essentially all the other exercises just extended)

So a set up could look something like this.
Day 1-Neuro Rate

  1. Reactive Upper
  2. Reactive Lower

Day 2-Rest/Recover
GPP, Tempo

Day 3-Neuro Duration(I am assuming less stressful on nervous system than rate and magnitude)

  1. OI’s for upper and lower
  2. Accentuated Eccentric for upper and lower
  3. Isometric for upper and lower

Day 4-Half day 2

Day 5-Neuro Magnitude

  1. Concentric only movement for upper and lower(explosive push ups from bottom position, single leg squats from bottom position, things of that nature)
  2. Weighted Reactive movement(with high amount of flexon as opposed to neuro rate with has a low amount of flexon)
  3. Force Absorbtion for upper and lower body

Day 6-Resoration Workout

  1. Half of day 2

Day 7-off

Would this work as a schedule using DB’s strength training idea’s with sprint training involved? If I have messed anything up, let me know.

I know I’m not kelly but I think I can add some help

  1. PIM would be normal lifting

(Pliometric-Isometric-Miometric) you caould also think of it as Eccentric-Isometric-Concentric (the EIC tempo prescriptions of Ian King come to mind)

  1. Your definition of rate is kinda skewed. Rate is things like top speed sprinting, agility ladders, Dot Drills, etc…

Magnitude would include Plyo’s and altitude drops as well as the DE method

Duration is heavy weights and repetition method work

Hope this helps

Actually I think neuro duration work is very stressful on the nervous system. When doing isometrics I always found myself extremely taxed, but never sore the next day. I suspect it was nervous system taking the beating. But you’ll have to see for yourself.

Rate, Magnitude, Duration

This is my take on it. Note that my interpretation of a lot of this stuff is just my interpretation…I don’t ask DB about everything so if you were to ask him you may find that I have screwed up a lot of stuff :).

Think of a force/time curve and imagine every action/movement you do being analyzed with a printout of a peak force and time curve.

On some the force/time curve would be characterized by a very short peak over a very short time with multiple small force peaks over a given time followed by a sharp but short gap in between each peak. Peak velocity sprinting is an example here. Relaxation and deceleration are important here.

On some you would have a very HIGH peak with a short time. This is the Magnitude or level of peak force is extremely high and the time, although longer then “rate” work, is still relatively short. A depth jump is an example here.

On some you would have a medium peak maintained over a long time. This is duration. A heavy weight training movement is an example here. The duration of force is long but the peak is not as high as a movement characterized by magnitude.

If it helps, the start of a sprint can be characterized as magnitude and top speed sprinting as rate.

In general you don’t want to mix rate and duration work in the same session. That means that you have these options for a session:

rate by itself
magnitude by itself
duration by itself
rate + magnitude
magnitude + duration

So you wouldn’t want to mix strength work with flying sprints. The big problem with mixing DUR with RATE work is that RATE work, and this is a good explanation from Brad, is you’re trying to teach your body to gain and release tension as quickly as possible whereas DUR work is trying to teach your system to sustain tension and delay peak twitch (supported by IIB to IIA conversion) (ever do a biceps workout and not be able to extend your arm? Same type of thing!).

If you want to start a DB style program the easiest place to start is with his Power template:

Session 1:

Strength speed

Example:
Power PIM Squat x 3-5 74-94% appropriated weight

**Force drop absorption (FDA)squat x 3-5 51-74% appropriated weight

Reactive glute ham raise x 5-9 seconds

**Progress into Reactive squat as proficiency improves. Set loading to coincide with technique.

Monitor drop-off with something like a broad jump or vertical jump…go to a 4% dropoff.

Session 2:
Speed strength
speed endurance

Example:

Amplitude depth drop landing (squat) x 30+ inch box x 3 (increase box height as technique improves)

Reactive depth jump x 18 inch box x 3

lateral barrier jump x 15-25 seconds

Again go to 4% dropoff. Use your depth jump to assess VJ and count the reps in the barrier jump then add 4% to the time and continue with the same # of reps.

guidelines:
perform session 1- 4% drop over 4 day scale
perform session 2- 4% drop over 4 day scale
perform session 1- “”
perform session 2- “”
perform session 1- 7% drop - 6 day scale

Notice there’s no sprinting. That’s intentional because I’d hope someone here would try this and see the effect that functional development has on technical. After a month go out and give yourself 2 sessions on the track and see what your acceleration looks like.

Of course it’s easy enough to add sprinting to the above schedule. You could add it easily to session 1 and eliminate the speed endurance from session #2 and replace with sprints. Or if you wanted to factorize the sprint work over multiple days, and your work capacity told you that this was the right thing to do (you could do more then 4 accelerations using a 4% dropoff and more then 4 peak velocity sprints using 2%) you could do session 1, rest 4 days, then do session 2 as above but with your sprint work separated and factorize that out over the next 4 days using the prime method (find how many sprints can you run at 95% - take that number and divide it out over 4 days and perform that many sprints each day at 95%). Then do session 1 normal, rest 4 days then session 2 and again factorize your sprints over the next 4 days then repeat session 1, rest 4 days etc. So you would have sprints factored into one 4 day period and not the other 4 day period.

If it were me for sprint factorization I would take a 4 day period and perform sprint accel work over those 4 days but to a 2% drop off on day 1 (starts) and 2% on day 3(accel). (Note that this is just what I would do I haven’t asked DB about it so take it with a grain of salt)

So it would look like this:
Session II- Day 1 (2% drop)
Amplitude depth drop landing (squat) x 30+ inch box x 3 (increase box height as technique improves)
Reactive depth jump x 18 inch box x 3

*10-20 meter starts -(go to 2% drop off)

day 2- off/restoration

day 3- 30 meter sprints- (go to 2% drop-off)

day 4- off

day 5- Session 1- AM (2% drop)
Power PIM Squat x 3-5 74-94% appropriated weight
Force drop absorption (FDA)squat x 3-5 51-74% appropriated weight
Reactive glute ham raise x 5-9 seconds
PM
*20 meter flying sprints- (go to 1% drop-off)

day 6- off/restoration

day 7 - 20 meter flying sprints- (go to 1% drop-off)

day 8- off/restoration

Day 9 - start over at day 1.

After a couple of cycles of that you would then eliminate the sprint factorization work for a time.

Note that restoration does not mean GPP. Also instead of trying to change things up and inserting more sessions, spreading things out over the week, factorizing work, messing with the drop-offs, etc. (like all that confusion I probably just created above) :slight_smile: - most are much better off by simply following the basic outline to start and then make adjustments from there. Most of the time if you start adding in extra days, tempo workouts, warmups, etc. you’ll just end up short changing yourself. First I’d say see how much you can progress by doing less then you ever expected and if that’s not working make adjustments.

That basic split above simplifies everything. But let’s say you want to get more into the gist of the system. First thing you need to do is read all his articles, q&a’s and book. It will help if you have a good knowledge of something like supertraining because you’ll have a broad grasp of everything. Then dive into DB’s stuff and you’ll have to plan on taking at least 3 months of using it before it all starts to fit together in your own mind.

thanks kelly b, i think i have a plan in mind.

would methods such as these combined with sprinting/sport specific activites(ie flag football), combine for optimal speed/improvement in sport specific activites? And is there really anything wrong with the program I outlined in my original post? And do movements have to be weighted? Also could an OI be manipulated, ie rather than quick rebound, rebound as hard and high as possible(magnitude work). I am busy at work thinking of ways to keep all about the pre stretch :wink:

now on inno-sprot site i see a sample chest and upper routine now it dosnt say what aw1rm you use for the oi or the isometrics with the perscribed number of time. ie-OI Barbell Row; N x 0-9 sec
-Iso Low Pulley Row; N x 25-40 sec
Like what percent of my AW(1rm)shouldi be using for theres types exerceise that dont give percentages just time

Kelly, I am gradually understanding DB’ s system better the more I read, and your posts and articles have definitely helped out. In the sample training sessions you posted, why are ADA drops and RA work together? Through the reactive jump test shouldn’t you be leaning toward either doing one or the other in terms of ADA vs. RA work. Or do the ADA drops from the higher box potentiate higher results in the RA jumps from the lower box? Just trying to learn when to use particular methods and how to structure them. Thanks for any help.

I think your schedule is pretty good.

I think on the mag day

  1. The sprints are good, so this is more of a comment, but I’d make sure they were acceleration oriented (starts and accels not top speed). As you get to top speed they become less mag and more rate

  2. concentric only movements. I think on a mag day you should focus on drop absorption (altitude and force), reactive and reactive acceleration methods.

I also do not like the idea of doing all three (mag, rate, and dur) in the same micro cycle.

If you need more speed I’d go with a strength-speed day and a speed-strength/speed-endurace day

Then if you need more strength go with a more duration dominant program (strength day and strength-endurance day)

Guys check out these posts by C.T. a while back. he explains the difference between rate, duration and magnitude in a very understandable simplistic way.

http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=5097

DB mainly prescribes percents in the MAG range. This is because if he wrote 0-9 sec you’d pick a weight that was too heavy.

Forthe DUR work, pick a weight that reaches limit in the time frame listed.

would methods such as these combined with sprinting/sport specific activites(ie flag football), combine for optimal speed/improvement in sport specific activites? And is there really anything wrong with the program I outlined in my original post? And do movements have to be weighted? Also could an OI be manipulated, ie rather than quick rebound, rebound as hard and high as possible(magnitude work). I am busy at work thinking of ways to keep all about the pre stretch

You have to account for the effect flag football has on the dropoff but yes it can be done. Your program could work but it would probably be difficult to get everything adjusted correctly and it’s kind’ve a shotgun approach. As for the OI manipulation, yes what you described, rebounding as hard as possible, would be a regular Reactive movement in the magnitude modality. OI is just a reactive form of duration work…allows you to maintain reactive functionality while enhancing the ability to strain.

why are ADA drops and RA work together? Through the reactive jump test shouldn’t you be leaning toward either doing one or the other in terms of ADA vs. RA work. Or do the ADA drops from the higher box potentiate higher results in the RA jumps from the lower box?

In the Reactive jump test if you were reactive deficient then either landings or RA depth jumps could be prescribed depending on how bad the deficiency is…but landings must be mastered before jumps out of the landing…so landings feed into RA jumps and I have also found a higher landing will potentiate a depth jump so that’s why the 2 are alternated there. If one were duration/strength deficient in the reactive test then OI might be an option.

yo sup this is conrad, Jeremy at inno-sport made me a routine based on my video i sent in now here is what it looks like

It will be structured as such: note this is for lower body.

Session1- FDA work (Force Drop Absorption)

FDA movements: Squats (51%-74%AW 1RM), glute-hame raises, reverse back raise, hip flexion abs, side lunges

Session2- ADA (Amplitude Drop Absorption) and RFI (Reflexive Firing Isometrics)

ADA movements: Box Drop Squat, split squats, stiff-legged drops, torsion training methods…

RFI movements: Barrier jumps, trampoline sprints, lateral jumps, quadrant work, four square work…

Regulating work/session:
Percentage to drop off is 3-5% for FDA and ADA; 1-3% for RFI
*At the beginning of the FDA and ADA session you will need to establish your vertical jump height as will use this to regulate the session. After performing FDA squats you will perform two vertical jumps…once the height dips below 4% in reduction then you will discontinue that movement. Same goes for ADA work, after each movement (i.e. box drop squat, split squats…). However in this case you will discontinue all ADA work. As for RFI work you will discontinue it once the time dips to 2-3%.

FDA squats you will want to wave load meaning on 1 set use 51%AW 1RM and the second set use 71%AW 1RM.
Session will go as follows:

Session 1
establish intitial vertical jump height

FDA squat 51%AW 1RM
test vertical (4% drop)
FDA glut-hams (5-10 drops)
FDA squat 71%AW 1RM
test vertical (4% drop)
FDA ? movement
then repeat cycle

Session 2
establish intitial vertical jump height

ADA Squat drops -5reps; alternate step off leg
test vertical
RFI barrier jumps; 9-25 sec.
ADA split squat drops-5reps ea. leg
test vertical
RFI trampoline sprints; 9-25 sec.
then repeat cycle
*ADA movements will drop due to vertical and RFI movements will drop due to time.

You will perform upper and then lower the next day taking 4 days in between sessions. For example Monday-upper, Tuesday-lower, Friday-upper, Saturday-lower and so forth…

what would be another good fda movement to add in there and on the fda movement is it just one rep. Also on the ghr should i test vert after that or just after the squats like it says and what is a differnt rfi movement i can do for session 2 if i dont have a trampiline and also another one that i can add in for session one a fda movment cause he put a ? by it . So when in those exercies i see a 4 percent drop i stop so say i ahve 30 inch vert and drops to 28-29 then i stop, and take out of cirucit untill 4 percent is reached on each exercise. And are RFI barrier jups just jumping over barrier very quickly and reactivly.
Respond back asap…thanx
Peace
C-RAD

and also how much weight should i be using on isometrics liek for the chest routine i did today how much for the low pulley iso hold like waht percent i used 95lbs held for 40secs 2 times then when 1 time i couldnt hold at 35 seconds then i stoped for day cause that was 6 percent drop. Well lemme know on those to things thanx

question, for duration days, could i use something like a westside ME workout rather than what they have perscribed? Also could one manipulate these methods into a westside split? you know ie
Day 1-Neuro Rate
Day 2-Recovery
Day 3-ME exercises
Day 4-Recovery
Day 5-Neuro Magnitude
Day 6-Recovery
Day 7-Recovery

So essentially rather than doing their DE day, you do a neuro magnitude or neuro rate day(which can include sprinting)?

A quick question here … would you categorize normal deep squats @ 90% - 95% - 99%, as neuro-rate or neuro-duration work? The reason I ask is that there seems to be some uncertainty about the whole thing … CT looking at ‘heavy lifting near maximal’ as neuro-duration work while someone else is looking at normal PIM squats as neuro-rate dominant. To me, normal deep squat @ > 90-95% is heavy lifting?

yo sup this is conrad, Jeremy at inno-sport made me a routine based on my video
:confused:

I can’t figure out what you’re asking so either edit your post to english or ask him.

question, for duration days, could i use something like a westside ME workout rather than what they have perscribed? Also could one manipulate these methods into a westside split? you know ie
Day 1-Neuro Rate
Day 2-Recovery
Day 3-ME exercises
Day 4-Recovery
Day 5-Neuro Magnitude
Day 6-Recovery
Day 7-Recovery

Yes you can make what you said work. That’s what I suggest most westside guys do…just keep things the same but look at the setup a little differently. Many will probably find they’re killing the triceps with excessive volume that prevents them from really being able to demonstrate peak force/strength without a taper.

would you categorize normal deep squats @ 90% - 95% - 99%, as neuro-rate or neuro-duration work?

I should’ve said this in my first post but forgot:

rate = speed
magnitude = power
duration = strength

A 90%+ lift is definitely duration.

Ok kellyb, i apologize for badgering you with these questions haha. ok here are the new ones

  1. Can accessory work be done on neuro rate and neuro magnitude days? Or would these be better left to their purity?(ie things for back, triceps, p-chain, etc)

  2. How great of an improvement speed wise(minus sprinting) do you think someone could get with this? (although sprints would be cycled in as a neuro rate and neuro magnitude exercise)

  3. Since isometrics produce the highest muscular contraction, and i like OI’s, can they be the main stay as my ME methods…? will this yield optimal results?

Kellyb, the reason I asked about the >90% squat (neuro-duration) was to somewhat confirm my concerns about the practical implications about keeping rate and duration work separated. When you sprint and jump two times a week (total 4/7) it becomes kind of difficult to separate neuro-rate from neuro-duration work, especially if you’re concerned about CNS recovery - you might benefit from separation of rate/magnitude/duration work, at least in theory, but the benefits can easily be void by total CNS drain. Thus, CNS recovery, regardless of how you mix the three neuro-modalities, must have the highest priority when we plan neuro-activity.

If jumping is priority number one (neuro-rate/magnitude) and sprinting (neuro-rate) comes close at second place the spectrum for meaningful weight training is pretty narrow. This means, in my mind, that the only meaningful strength training modality in a circumstance like this is heavy lifting (neuro-duration) or like CF says; “go heavy or go home”, OLs being one exception albeit not disputing the overall trend. The other modalities are taken care of in jumping and sprinting.

This takes us again to the question about CNS recovery in a weekly plan. The weekly plan might look like this:
Mo: bounding, jumps
Tu: sprinting + weights
We: recovery, tempo, etc.
Th: bounding, jumps
Fr: sprinting + weights
Sa: recovery, tempo etc.
Su: off

This is only an example but sufficient to illustrate why I choose neuro-duration weight training combined with sprinting even though we learned it’s not optimal. Because: it is PRACTICAL. And even more importantly; it serves the GPP mesocycle in the yearly plan. I took the GPP into my illustration because generally weights play a pretty important role during this period. A true believer in the separation of neuro-rate and neuro-duration might probably do the weights on jumping days (jumps being shifted more to the magnitude modality). But on the other hand, trashing your CNS the day before sprinting is neither a good option, you might even be worse off. I also think bounding and jumping, especially during GPP, is less CNS draining than sprinting. Therefore, I choose to do them before sprinting because jumping affects sprinting the following day to a lesser degree than sprinting would do to jumping – jumping was our first priority in the first place.

What I’m trying to illustrate is that the neuro-rate- magnitude- and duration is something to keep in mind when planning, but should easily be disregarded if more important priorities for the whole mesocycle demands it. Sometimes we might actually be better of compromising our microcycle or training modalities if it helps progression in the longer run.

  1. Can accessory work be done on neuro rate and neuro magnitude days? Or would these be better left to their purity?(ie things for back, triceps, p-chain, etc)

Some accessory work like neck, abs, rotator cuff, ankle, forearms etc. yes. The lower body gets hit a bit by dynamic warmups, muscle activation exercises etc.

  1. How great of an improvement speed wise(minus sprinting) do you think someone could get with this? (although sprints would be cycled in as a neuro rate and neuro magnitude exercise)

I’m not sure which plan you’re asking about…the sample I laid out or the one you’re asking about? One thing to keep in mind is that speed is largely just a combination of expression of strength qualities and technique.

  1. Since isometrics produce the highest muscular contraction, and i like OI’s, can they be the main stay as my ME methods…? will this yield optimal results

Yes a yielding Iso (unrack the weight, lower, and hold) works extremely well for a ME movement.

When you sprint and jump two times a week

The thing is that volume of sprinting/jumping is probably not necessary. What’s the goal with each session? Is it to improve a quality, maintain a quality, or waste time? Most people still do too much sprinting and jumping. IMO you can’t set more then 1 PR in anything per week without running yourself into the ground and it’s best to make that count. That pr might be acceleration, might be speed might be speed endurance might be in the weight room but if you train all qualities and do everything 100% then you’re basically asking your system to put out 100% effort all the time and either 2 things will happen:

  1. You will run yourself into the ground and fry your nervous system.

  2. You will program your system to hold back from a true maximum effort anything.

#2 I notice is very common.

But anyway, for the situation you describe you would want to stay away from anything truly high intensity in the weight room…that means anything in what DB calls the An1 Anerobic response bracket which is 0-9 seconds. OI’s or loaded RFI’s in the reserve 25-40 second area are a good choice because they provide some unloading while allowing some stimulation