How about as a definition moving to the point where the presence of fatigue causes a deterioration of form?
Deterioration which:
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may take different forms depending on the context: in the gym it might manifest as struggle to complete a rep,on the track longer contact times or else,in the pool loss of stroke efficiency…
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is always relative to the output level (as in tc’s example)…
…am I understanding correctly Charlie?
If so wouldn’t such a deterioration set the momentary frame of the individual learning opportunity window?
Great, this is why I am here!!! To discuss and learn new things and ideas! 
Fully agree… I also stated simmilar stuff in Homoeostasis Performance Model when “analyzing” skill/abilities (motor space)! I would say that for ANY ability it is hard to say that it doesn’t represent SKILL in the same time! Strenght is a skill, speed is a skill, endurance is a skill… it is very hard to draw a line between skills and abilties as latent factors!
I know what you are aimig at but you didn’t expressed it very well, and this why the “confusion” started in later posts.
Fatigue STARTS at the ONSET of every exercises. Fatigue is not just yes/no situation (discreete), it is continual process that starts at the onset of every exercises (it starts in my fingers while I am writing this, but my performance is not affected).
So, I would rather say that any movement performed with POOR FORM or QUALITY regardless of fatigue (altought fatigue may contribute to its quality negativelly) is negative reinforcement of movement pattern.
Note that a lot of factors may cause poor form not just fatigue! Tiredness (bad sleep), de-motivation, de-concentration, nice chick walking by when you squat etc 
Exaclty!!! Fatigue per se doesn’t deteoriate performance, only after passing some threshold. This is why we differentiate between hidden and expressed fatigue.
With hidden fatigue, athlete increase his effort to overcome the fatigue effects (increase in RPE) and performace is not affected. Example is doing first 5-10reps with 15RM for 15reps.
Expressed fatigue is when athlete cannot increase his effort any more and fatigue starts to take effect on performance. Using the last example, it is doing 10-15 reps with 15RM. The speed of execution, for etc, will suffer, how much it depends…
The “trick” it to move this threshold up, to allow better performance and less injury rate. Under the logic of Homoeostasis Performance Model, this threshold is determined by the ratios of Homoeostasis Break-down process and Homoeostasis Maintenance process.
I would say yes! Skill acquisition should be done under the “perfect” conditions, while its performance doesn’t. This is a tricky question especially if we define strenght as a skill… Then to learn that skill, practice should be done perfectly thus without decrease in movement quality, and with no failure, no foced reps!
I usualy go to the point where I cannot lift the weight alone (to pass a sticking point) and my partner helps me out with little force. No forced reps. I tryed using buffer and stuff, but it is hard in my gym because I can only do increments of 10kg wich is too much for my strength level. To solve this puzzle I try to lift for more reps.
And with NO either 5-10 15RM reps or 10-15 15RM reps,if strength is the skill to be aquired,regardless of biological or training age!
I am sorry pakewi, but I don’t get you here… 
10-15RM loads do not allow for the correct skill aquisition,if the skill concerned is STRENGTH!
Hmmmm… Interesting!
Is there any different movement pattern when lifting 15RM compared to 1-3RM?
I said before that larger number of reps in squat can screw your technique so it is better to use some auxilary work for RE and keep core exercieese at sub6reps. But is this the case with begginers?
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=11704
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=12646
To me lifting 15RM or 3RM are simply and imply different skills,as well as every new 1RM is always a new skill in itself.
The only techniques the skill called General Strength implies are those concerned with the core of the ability itself,that is to generate and hold bodily tension.
Wherever you got those recipes,they may well be one way to achieve your set goals,but one thing I begin to feel is hating training prescriptions,as very limited sets of options by definitions…
Sorry I don’t see how the information applies to fatigue vs performance discussion.
TC wrote:
And you pakewi wrote:
Is there a consensus from the information provided - if there is a deterioration of form = stop the activity? But if there is a deterioration hasn’t the changes already occurred?
Yes.The whole point being avoiding deterioriation at any cost.
If you feel to start a new thread where the information applies,I will be only happy to contribute on occasion.
The whole process of avoiding deterioration becomes problematic because you must push the limits to advance, so you must occasionally move into training territory where you can at least feel the hint of deterioration before backing off. You cannot then move sightly back from that brink and use that number with confidence because that “hint” will come at different points with the final elements, such as weights, based on what has occurred before, both from that day or from that training cycle.
Are we talking about all stimuli that an athlete is presented with (general and specific)? Wouldn’t there be greater potential to push the limits of fatigue in general activities e.g., tempo, general overall conditioning?
Simmilar approach is used in powerlifting:
- Do only QUALITY training in main lifts and special exercises (great intensity, form, low reps, great rest)
- Hit the QUNATITY with auxilary work (submax intensity, larger number of reps, shorter rest, fatigue build up, but keep the form but not so strongly as in major ones)
PLs don’t do squats in RE zone, they do axilary exercises for this issue. If they hit squats for 15reps they will certainly screw their competition form for 1RM…
BTW, I have just returned from my training and I did 12reps with 80kg deadlift! Heretic!!! hehehe
Interesting question Stevemac! There is a lot of ways to skin a cat! Westside lifters uses approach that I have outlined (Dave Tate gets mad everytime he sees somone lifting more than 3 reps in main lifts ), but, for example, Alwyn Cosgrove do larger number of reps in squat and DL… So… the choice is yours… as allways!
Dave Tate (Westside) doesn’t seem use the main lifts to any particular degree throughout the whole macro / meso cycles as far as i am aware.
They do seem to use a lot of special exercises which are similar to the main lifts e.g., floor press, board press, band bench, chain bench etc. Makes me wonder if they would do better by actually using the exact lifts used in comp similar to Metal Militia (wearing suit)?
Stevemac,
You are correct regarding Westside: they cycle special exercises for ME work, but they don’t ever use them for SE and RE work (as I stated). Wendler wrote one article about it recently
I am interested can this “phylosophy” be used in other sports?
In my “Aerobic development for basketball” thread I also questioned the use of specific exercises in bball (defencive slides, etc) to develop aerobic capacity. To do this, the intensity should be lowered and the duration should be expanded which usually result in screwing of movement…
The solution is (a) use general stuff to improve aerobic capacity and “spend” most “specific” exercises for the “real” deal, or (b) interspred the special exercises with general ones (20m side shuffles, 20 strides, 20m side shuffles, 20m back running @70%, …)
What do you think?
All of this mentioned stimulated me to think about the “practice under fatigue” topic, which is BTW out of topic of this thread (sorry TC )
One of mine teachers at faculty (the one arsehole I mention all the time) mentioned that soccer players should learn to play in fatigued state among other goals of training. This is considered as training under fatigue. This training should provide the opportunity of players to be able to perform well during a game when fatigue starts in. This is depicted as situation A in graph. But(t)…
No one can perform well when fatigue starts in (after certain threshold). So, training “under fatigue” DOESN’T prepare athletes to be good when faigue starts in, because no one perform well when this happen! The underlying logic of this approach (situation A) is FLAWED, why, because, again, performing at fatigued state doesn’t develop ability to perform well during fatigue because when this happend (fatigue over certain threshold) deteoriation in form will happen. This kind of training only teaches athlete to use screwed form and increase the risk of injuries.
The solution is to decrease the level of fatigue and/or to move the threshold point toward greater fatigue levels (situation B in graph). So, the thing is that we don’t try to force our athletes to play well under fatigue, but rather to improve their “work capacity” (or homoeostasis maintenance process - under the logic of HPM) and to lower the fatigue levels at particular point, thus achieving greater quality and less fatigue levels…
So “training under fatigue” is crap, and the real thing is “training to prevent too much of fatigue which can cause movement deteoriation”!!! Do not train to tolerate fatgue, train to prevent fatigue development!!!
But how we can achieve this “threshold point” increase or fatigue decrease? I can only speculate that the solution is to (a)train near that threshold, (b) improve working capacity with GPP means, which in turn “transfer” as lower fatigue levels at particual performance point.
Soccer example:
Is it better to improve RSA in soccer with (a)actually repeating sprint and techniques at high intensity or (b) by using more GPP means, or © both, but don’t allowing th quatility to drop in a option?
I will let you guys answer this one…
Using this type of training would certainly decrease the number of “sport specific / repetitive” injuries.
And “other” injuries?
Will thcis approah be much more better than “normal” (doing RE work with special exercises and other examples) in terms of achieving better quality - perfomance - results? Is this applicable to all levels of athlete’s? Is this just one way to skin a cat?
What do you think about specially designed poligons with a ball for aerobic development in soccer?
Probably depends on the level of the athlete; top athletes who have long arduous seaons do not require any “aerobic” training as the sport itself provides sufficient stimulus?
Could you explain what poligons are?
Back to the deterioration discussion most members seem to be referring to the acute changes but little or no mentioned to chronic changes. There may be no deterioration within the session but chronic changes to technique can occur provided enough stimulation?
Stevemac,
here are two scientific articles ( 1 , 2 ) outlining the use of poligons to develop soccer specific endurance.
I agree with your opinion that athletes with a lot of games usually don’t need more “aerobic” training. Is this the case with the kids too? Sport practice is enough “aerobic” stimuli?
Practice make permanent… poor practice make poor movement permanent!