Indoor Training Plan - Please critique?

Expert Discussion Planning and Periodization
1

Well I’m obviously new here, so anyhow first I want to say that about a year ago I started becoming real familiar with some of CF’s stuff, read his books and some lectures.
My stats:
Male, 21
6 years serious training
(electric) PRs - set in May 2012
100m - 11.15
200m - 22.50
400m - 50.48
60m - December 2011 - 7.20

As you can see, I haven’t PR’d in a long time. Part of that is, I won’t go into too much detail unless you want me to, but those times I ran in May 2012 were when I was a freshman in college running unattached and training under the coach at the university I attend and I got on the team the next year. Ran a few indoor meets as a 400m runner for the team, then got injured with sports hernias. I was not on the team anymore for the next year (this past year, my junior year) and I became familiar with CFs stuff as I said, and I decided I wanted to go short-to-long, training by myself. I didn’t really know much about this style of training though, and got slower, running 11.7 and 23.6 at best this spring. However, I did a lot of reading and researching, just tried to learn more about this type of program, and this summer things started to click a bit. I ended up running in only one summer meet due to the weather over here, but I ended up running 11.2 and 23.0 in July (I messed up up the turn and pulled my right quad a little, I think I wasn’t used to running that fast around a bend but anyways I think I could have went 22.6 honestly, it felt like I lost half a second or so). But to clear things up, I do know that once I started implementing top speed work like flying sprints and longer sprints in the summer, that’s where most of the improvements came from. I felt like I could have ran 10.9 this summer if I had more meets to run in, plus I was only running against 11.8-24.0 second guys anyways. Anyhow, I feel like I’m starting to get it. It’s just that we used to train either short starts or longer intensive tempo on that program. There was very little to none of 40-120 work in that program for 400m runners especially. Anyhow, just telling you this to help you get a picture of where I’m at.

Anyhow, I’m in the last week of my GPP as far as what I have planned and, wanted a critique on my S-L program. I’m leading up to the first meet in December and trying to have a little peak there. In the last month prior, during November that is, I want to be up to 50-60m sprints as well as some special endurance 2x200 and flying 20m - since, my strength is top speed. In my GPP, right now I have worked up to 4x4x60 (15m int. limit).

12 Week SPP (accel limit in parentheses)

4x4x60 (20)
4x4x60 (25)
3x4x60 (30) - is this progressing too fast?
3x4x60 (30) DELOAD - shorter breaks to lower intensity

3x3x60 (30)
2x4x60 (35?)
2x3x60? (40)
2x4x60 (40) DELOAD, again shorter breaks to lower intensity

2x3x60 (50)
4-6 50m
4-6 60m
4x60 DELOAD

Two more weeks here before the meet to have some key indicator sessions and taper

Obviously I have a lot of question marks about this. Is the progression too fast? What don’t you like? I also thought maybe the intensity limits could go something like this instead:

20
20
25
25

30
30
40
40

50
50
60
60

What do you guys think? Other than that, I also plan on progression EFE to FEF and lengthening, so starting with 10-10-10 EFE and going to 10-15-10 EFE, later on moving to FEF of 10-10-10, and building up to 20-20-20 FEF in the last block. Also, flying 10s to 15s, to 20s maybe in each block as the progression for those? I really need some advice guys! Looking to obviously focus on the 60m and have a decent 200m also. Thanks

2

There are several questions which need to answered.

1.What’s your program was last year?

2.What’s your access to facilities? eg. Indoor track, gym, recovery (massage, pool), grass.

3.How many times a week are you going to train?

4.How many HI days per week?

The volume in the program 4x4x60 is high, my concern is about maintaining quality of the repetition in the further stages of the program.
Read the forum there is plenty info. Some guys started their programs with 2x4x60 or 3x3x60.
Always quality above quantity. Always

3

Like I said, didn’t have much of a program last year as I was training myself and didn’t know what I was doing until this summer. I didn’t do nearly enough volume of top speed and SE until this summer, then I ran well.

I have access to all facilities and follow the 3 day HI program.

For example, this week (last week of GPP) I did 4x4x60 (15m int.) 1’/4’ RI on Monday and Friday, squat and bench after. Did block starts up to 25m and EFE on Wednesday with plyos after and no lifting.

I fear I might struggle with going 4x4x60 with 20m intensity limit depending on rest intervals. Maybe I should drop the volume now, from 4x4 to 3x4, or is it too soon for that?
I really just want an idea on how to progress these intensity limits. I’ve written up several ideas but not sure what’s the best way to go about it, mostly figuring out when to lengthen it out, and also rest intervals.

4

You never stated what your goals are. Better 60m? 400m focus? Indoor more important than outdoor? Trying to make a team?

The easiest way to understand split runs is to view them as SE runs, 4x4x60m is 4x240m. That’s a huge amount of volume if at 90+%, because at your speed even a 25m accel limit is going to be nearly full speed.

Are these timed? Consistent drop-offs in time through the session will indicate too high of volume. And week to week times should show progression.

Remember, Charlie was showing samples of elite level training and it was to demonstrate concepts rather than a cookie cutter program.

Guys I’ve coached with similar times as yours only did these sessions once a week and took 6-8 weeks to build to 3x3x60m. That session was also the last in the week because they were fried after that. We did something like M- Accel/speed, Tu- Tempo, W- Long hills or 200/300’s or SE, TH- Tempo, F- Split runs, Sa/Su- off.

5

the thing i got out of the Charlie F plan is to make sure you do not run too fast on days in between speed sessions. The tempo should be really slow. Exercises at the beginning of each run will usually regulate speed. My men never go faster than a 16-17 100 pace on these days and I see no slowness develop in them. They get faster because on the speed days we run for real. I think that’s a basic - high speed one day, low the next. Take a rest day at least once per wk. Recovery is key. I should also mention we do the easy days in grass every time, and that creates less injury. Wear flats

6

As far as the workouts you asked about, they look ok. It again depends on recovery if you can handle them. If your feet get heavy , move the limit to 5 meters shorter… or 10…or just cut a few reps out. You have to go by feel. I write our speed stuff in ranges, not exact numbers ie 2 or 3 sets of 3x60…or 2x3-4 x60… Then I go by how they look. The worst thing to do is get married to a workout. If it’s not going well that day, stop or shorten the zone.

7

It doesn’t depend only on the recovery. As Stikki wrote above it’s an elite level training, therefore work capacity to do it has to be in the place and needs to be developed over number of years. At the first stages of the program the recoveries need to be short/ incomplete to get a curate lactate response, it is quite possible to handle 4x4x60 20+m however as it was mentioned above as the intensity goes up, around 30m you are almost at your max and to do it 12 of those runs seems to me quite difficult.

bmarcho1. Tempo is not “really slow running” Tempo (extensive) needs to be slow enough to be classified as a low intensity workout “Try and keep each rep @75% or even below if tired, as Charlie would say, “the last rep should be as fast as the first, if not, you are going too fast””. Tempo is hard work, jogging for sake of jogging doesn’t make much sense to me. If you are doing something, do it right otherwise don’t do it at all.

8

I think you just want to be argumentative. I don’t have time for that. Don’t put words in my mouth so you can make an argument about nothing.

9

Stikki -

Trying to focus on 60m. Not trying to make the team, at least at where I am now, I’m banned from my university’s team (not for drugs though lol). If you want the full story on that I can tell it.

Anyways, I compete unattached. I’m just looking to PR again and just get better at what I love to do.

I have a freelap.

10

Well anyhow last week and the week before I was doing 4x4x60 with 15m accel 1’/4’. I handled it well. But I feel what you guys are saying - I think I will have to go to 3x4x60 for a 20m intensity. Like I said, the 4x4x60 with 15m felt good through all the sets and reps with no big dropoffs, but if I did a 4th set at 20m accel, that 4th set would probably be low quality garbage. So that’s why I’m thinking 3x4 at 20m. And rest intervals 1.5min and 4.5 or 5’? does that sound okay?

11

Another thought, maybe a question, but anyhow, you know how you’re acceleration is greater in the beginning? (ex. - greater velocity change from 0-10m compared to 10-20, and it levels off eventually) Well my question is, would it be more important therefore to gradually move out the accel limits the shorter they are? For example, 10 to 15, then to 20, 25, to 30? Versus 10, 20, 30, yunno? And since the velocity changes less during 30-40 and 40-50, would that imply you don’t need to do 35m, 45m accel limits and just go by the 10m segments at that point? You get what I’m wondering about?

12

I think thats a good idea. I’d experiment with it. Even within the workout itself.

13

So I did 3x4x60 (20) yesterday with 1.5/5’ rest. Well the first 2 sets went well, by the 3rd set I had to increase my rest to finish it decently. So I’m thinking more like 2’/6-7’. Volume seemed sensible. After I adapt, I’ll do 4x3x60 instead since there will be more rest with that, making quality higher. Go back to 3x4 for the deload, then move on.

14

i think you know what you are doing.

15

I really feel like I have a good grasp for the general concepts, but I just overthink things when it comes to specific workouts and actual planning.

16

Up until November, would this work? (these are 2x in a week, so 16 sessions total)

Week 1: 3x4x60 (20) 2’/6’ RI
Week 2: 4x3x60 (20) 2’/6’ RI
Week 3: 4x3x60 (25) ***increase rest
Week 4: 3x4x60 (25) DELOAD - decrease rest

October

Week 5: 3x3x60 (30) ***increase rest
Week 6: 2x4x60 (35) ***increase rest
Week 7: 3x2x60 (40) ***increase rest
Week 8: 2x3x60 (40) DELOAD - decrease rest

OR should I do something closer to this? Since above, there appears to be a lack of work at 30 (only 2 sessions there)
(in sessions, weeks separated by a space. These are still 60m splits, i just wrote the accel limit in there for the sake of convenience obviously)

  1. 3x4x20

  2. 3x4x20

  3. 4x3x20

  4. 3x4x25 ***increase rest

5 4x3x25
6 3x3x30 ***increase rest

7 DELOAD 3x3x30 decrease rest
8 DELOAD 3x3x30

  1. 2x4x30 ***increase rest

  2. 2x4x30

  3. 2x3-4x35 ***increase rest

  4. 2x3-4x35

  5. 3x2x40 ***increase rest

  6. 3x2x40

  7. DELOAD 2x3x40 decrease rest

  8. DELOAD 2x3x40

Leading into November. The main difference being I get a lot more work in at 30 on the latter. Thoughts???

17

I like the ones with the intesifications out to 50m to 60m that you had in the orig thread. Even if you can’t accel to 60, which you probably can’t, you can probably get up to 50 or close. If you want to stimulate max velocity at some point you need to try to accel past 40, even if its near the later prep period. Obviously if you can’t, then stop trying, but at 11.2 i wouldnt think you arent red-lining at 40. But that’s a guess. Youre the guy on the ground.

18

Hey Brett,

You have received some excellent insight from Wermouth and Stikki here. Since you don’t have a background in going Short to Long, I would suggest sticking at 3x3. That way at least you’re cutting out what is likely the worst quality rep, and are getting a rest between sets.

The other thing you need to be aware of is that it’s VERY easy to fall into the trap that most inexperienced coaches fall into- wanting to have the “perfect program.” Endless hours will be spent tweaking the progression of workouts, and often the biomechanical positions being hit are subpar and don’t receive 1/10th the attention. Make no mistake- running a short to long program means you need to be a stickler for technique. Reading back over Charlie’s work repeatedly over the years showed me that he everything he did was quality.

Having a program that is relatively high in specific work is a problem if the mechanics you are practicing are compromised. I know this because I have made this mistake (I just couldn’t see mechanical flaws early on for the life of me), and have seen countless other coaches make this error.

You were smart to catch on to the acceleration limits being too far out for someone at your current speed. Instead, starting at 15, then 17.5, 20, 22.5, 25 may be a wise progression.

You may wish to consider loading some video of your first 10m, 20m, 30m, and max V phases.

19

Yeah honestly I do see how I’ve been overthinking it, I’m seeing it more and more. I think I’m just going to go recovery based as far as the progression goes and of course not “set in stone” any of my workouts or progressions. I’m just going to progress to the next steps when I feel like my body has adapted to the workout. I’ll try and record some of my stuff too.

So I get the SE split reps concept pretty well now I think, but what about EFE/FEF and flying (finish drill) progressions?
I think starting with EFE, then progressing to FEF, then when the SE split has dropped down to 4x60 near the end, then I can include both some FEF and flys to make up for the lost volume as Charlie speaks of in Inside the SPP?

One more question, how much further out should accels be compared to the SE split reps? For example, with a 15m intensity limit SE split reps should you be doing accels out to 20m at most? or should you go out further? When you’re at 30m int. SE split reps, should you be out at 40m by then?

20

I find that my absolute fastest 10m split in a 100m race is from 40-50m, top speed is my strength and so I probably reach it a tad bit later than other guys with the same time as me. I will be close to top speed from 30-40 for sure. But up to only 30 I feel like I’m just getting going, that’s why I think it would be good for me to have full or near-full accels, 20m flys, and some 150s/200s SE during November in order to come out fast the first meet (first week of December).