I’m looking for some tips and opinions on maintaining speed reserve throughout the mid to latter portions of the training year for the 400 and 800. Assuming a short to long approach, where the acceleration and top speed abilities have already been established during the GPP, what considerations need to be made for maintaining the speed reserve during SPP, pre-comp, and comp?
My present idea follows:
Monday - max speed (60m-80m reps with full recovery)
Tuesday - tempo/continuous
Wednesday - Speed Endurance, progressing to Special Endurance as season progresses
Thursday - tempo/continuous
Friday - Speed Endurance, progressing to Special Endurance as season progresses
Saturday - tempo/continuous
Sunday - OFF or tempo/continuous
Entering the SPP, the Wed. and Fri. sessions would be Speed Endurance. The reps would gradually lengthen in distance and slow in pace to Special Endurance levels until the target pace of the 400 or 800 race is reached, depending on the goal race of the phase (400 indoor, 800 outdoor under a double-periodized year).
So, is scheduling one max speed session a week the best way to maintain the speed reserve while focusing on other qualities in the other weekly sessions?
And can that max speed session be held as a constant each week as shown until the next GPP is begun?
The brutal truth is, your speed’s got to take a back seat, Joel
But a good workout to keep as much of you speed is 5-8x100m accelerations (30m easy accel 30m hard accel 10hold 30 decel) w/full recovery are a good thing to do 'bout 2 times a week, not as intense as 60m’s or 80m’s at 95-100%. If you’re on the short relay teams the run-throughs they do are a pretty good way to mainain your speed. If you aren’t quick enough to be on a relay team, try to convince the coach to let you be an alternate.
(P.S. Did you compete at the Adidas Outdoors in Raleigh last year?)
Thanks for the reply, Palmtag. So you’re suggesting I use a couple of Speed Endurance sessions twice a week to hold the speed from the GPP? I’m just afraid I’m leaving too much CNS unused and on the table while adding extra muscular fatigue on top of the Special Endurance sessions of mid season like 300’s at 400 pace and 500’s at 800 pace. Has your experience been that the intense 60’s and 80’s break you down too much for other training means?
No Adidas Outdoors for me. I graduated UNC a couple of years ago and run unattached when I can.
Top speed isn’t a priority as a 4/8 runner so it really shouldn’t have an entire workout day dedicated entirely to it, maybe as part of a much larger technical strength and mechanics workout day, where speed is just one of a couple “power” excercises emphasised that day. You could probably achieve the same CNS intensity, and spread it out over a much broader spectrum of activities that are beneficial to a $.75 runner(quarter and a half ).
Kate, who I coach at the moment for 800m, did this session today: 500m at 2min-flat pace, then 3mins recovery, followed by 150m in 21.0, walkback recovery, then 150m (in sub-21), walkback recovery, then 60m, 50m, 40m, 30m, 20m - all the reps were rolling start. The 60-20 ladder was done purely to try for sharp technique (triple extension of hip, knee, ankle joints etc).
Something like that might work for speed building as well as satisfying specific endurance needs.
there is a good thread called “lactate threshold” i think; although mainly for 400m, you’ll get the picture and excellent comments from KitKat, PJ and others…
I don’t think top speed is THE priority of a 400/800 athlete, elars21. I guess I myspoke. The top priorities of a 400/800 are, from my understanding as follows:
Lactate Threshold
Speed Endurance (Very close behind Lactate)
Top Speed
Aerobic endurance
Repeatable Strength (vs max strength, interchangable w/aerobie)
Overall Sexieness (very important to success of a 400/800 runner)
The surprising thing is, when I consider the priorities of an 800/1600 runner (with the emphasis on the 800) the priorities change very little. Top speed and Aerobie switch places, and everything else stays the same.
I would go:
1 Ease of speed-the ability to stay “relaxed” for a 55 second 400m (for someone who runs a 1:55). This maybe a combination of your first two.
2. Speed reserve
3. Strength to bodyweight ratio at all parts of the curve. (max strentgh, power, strength endurance)
4. aerobic efficiency
It would seem that endurance at race speed is the final priority in the 800 and 1600, and maybe to a large degree in the 400. However, I believe all the other priorities mentioned (plus VO2max) contribute directly to endurance at race speed.
The focus of the thread is the speed reserve developed via top speed work; #1 priority or not, it’s a priority which ought to be maintained through the competition period. I like the varying approaches mentioned so far for including the training in the weekly microcycle, be it before other work/after other work/on its own. The answer to this question may just require an occasional time trial over 60 or 80m to determine if speed reserve has been maintained or even increased.
So what would be the best way to quantify and measure speed reserve? Perhaps a timed segment between 40m and 80m after an initial acceleration, to reduce the influence of acceleration and speed endurance in a test for only speed reserve?
Well, on second thought, Nikolouski, I guess “lactate threshold” isn’t really the right way to phrase it. What I ment by lactate threshold was pretty much the maximum amount of lactic acid a runner can tolerate before they begin to shut down. In retrospect What I should ranked as #1 was the total “Lactic Endurance” a quaility encompassing both Lactate Threshold and Lactic Rate Terminal Velocity (I’ve heard LRTV called a million different things, but pretty much I mean the maximum spead at which a runner can travel before they begin to accumulate massive amounts of lactic acid.) Those 2 things in conjunction are in my opinion the top priority of a 400/800 runner. Though, the other 5 things I listed are immensely important attributes for a 400/800 runner, the ability for immense Lactic Endurance of an athlete is really what seperates a good 400/800 runner from a 200/400 runner.
Joel, I don’t know how you would test purely for speed reserve. I guess it would be as simple as taking a short 40-80m time trial, and then comparing that time to your fastest 800split of equal distance. If you mean something more complicated than that, please elaborate.
We were both talking about aerobic endurance, as developed from long runs. Your cardiovasular or aerobic system can be developed from all types of running whether the runs are aerobic or anaerobic in nature. For example a set of 40m sprints with complete recovery -the runs are completely anaerobic but you still have to make up O2 consumption in between and after the runs. This is why it’s easier for a power/speed athlete to switch to an endurance event and not the other way around. That’s why a sprinter can have a good showing their first time in an 800m. The only reason Michael Johnson doesn’t own the WR in 800m is because he’s built like a sprinter, his form wouldn’t work in middle distance, and had no reason try 800m. That’s why people immediately think Jeremy Wariner could own the 800. He has a small build and his effortless mechanics look like they could transfer well to 800m.
Nikolouski - For the 800/1600, the various gurus in the distance running community seem to argue a lot about which is the most important aerobic quality to develop for success. To greatly generalize, I would say it’s as follows:
The Lydiard followers - maximize aerobic endurance and capillarization with high mileage at a slowish pace, relatively
The Kenyan followers - maximize the Lactate Threshold with many runs near the Lactate Threshold (about half-marathon pace- also the speed you can run for 30-60 min with blood lactate at a stable level somewhere between 2.0-6.0 mmol, depending on the athlete)
VO2max followers - maximize VO2max (roughly the amount of oxygen your muscles can process at one time) via interval runs between mile and 5k pace (MUCH arguement about which paces/intervals/recoveries develop VO2max optimally
Basically the proponents of all three groups would say that maximizing their favored aerobic quality will allow subsequent anaerobic work to be most effectively executed. To avoid confusion, Lactate Threshold would be a separate quality from Lactic Tolerance - how well the athlete can buffer lactate when running at middle distance speeds.
Palmtag - By speed reserve I just meant the difference between top speed and any middle distance running speed. So to test for its maintenance as the season progressed you would need to know your top speed; hence that test I was thinking of that would attempt to factor out the influence of acceleration and speed endurance.
i thought you might mean something like that; lactic tolerance, that’s clear now; and i agree, since it’s a specific characteristic that an 800m runner needs…
high VO2max i’d say is very important, as well (don’t remeber your number about this, never mind); i mean more important vs. other events (e.g., marathon) where other factors (e.g., running economy, etc) play a major role
this doesn’t mean, of course, that VO2max is not needed there as well; and how you improve it is altogether another issue for another forum…
back to the original one…
i suppose that top speed can be maintained for some time and if properly trained
on the speed/special endurance part, do you think two such sessions per week are too many? i suppose they won’t be the same -in terms of distance, for example- but perhaps they might be more tiring now and preparing for 400m, whereas later on, a short one and a longer one -targeting specifically 800m- might be more appropriate… do you prefer including two from now as a better preparation for later on, as well?
also, why not spreading these more by placing the speed session in the middle? or you feel “too” tired by then for a speed session?
i would include no1 and 3 perhaps in such training preferring a combination of what you are saying rather than a single approch and for different reasons each
on another note, are you sure on what you are saying about the Kenyans? why would they use such an intensity -and be famous for their success- since it seems to me irrelevant to these specific distances? Pakewi would be a better person to talk about this, but the pace of the LT as you describe it -and that’s its definition roughly- sounds like an intermediate speed to me… How would this help a middle distance runner? For 10-21km runners, that’s a different story…
without going into too much detail, this distinction is fine by me, along with your definition of LT above…
Re: Two Speed/Special Endurance sessions per week too many? Yeah it might be. I’ll have to play that by ear when I reach the end of the GPP. I’m thinking if the body can handle it, why not. Progress should be quicker at extending out the rep distance if it can be done twice a week instead of once. Probably would make some kind of compromise to reduce the number of contacts on the track, like doing one of the sessions on hills. If it’s just too much speed work then I would look to replace one SE workout with a VO2max workout on the hills (3-5 minutes at 3k-5k pace), since the other speed work reportedly reduces VO2max.
Re: Top Speed session between the SE sessions? Well I put it first to have the high CNS once a week, of course. And I left the 2 days of no speed at the end of the week because I’ve found Special Endurance creates so much muscular fatigue, and I don’t want to take that fatigue into the Top Speed session and then practice bad form or risk an injury.
Re: The three different followers of an aerobic quality - I’m not saying I advocate any of these three more than the other. In fact, I like a combination of all three somewhat equally; the respective gurus have all convinced me that their favored quality is important, but not to the exclusion of the other two.
thanks for the link -i’ve only checked the 1st one and very briefly; however, their LT training seems to be used before their specialisation with very hard training later on and for perhaps limited time vs. otherwise could have been achieved, or at least for some of them, because i am sure that this training is not copied easily by all runners and the fact that they start running slowly in early years and increase intensity with relatively standardised duration does not necessarily mean that this is their LT intensity;
as i said before, i need to look at the site in more detail, what they mean by their sessions and in what way they use their lactate equipment; just give me some time, if i ever manage it…
i wish Pakewi could have a look at this thread at some point… If you’ve seen it and no comments, shame on you! :eek:
i’ll have a look and let you know; not much time at the moment, you see…
thanks!
PS1 have a try with the SE sessions and see how it goes; just have variety at least in some way or the other; what you are saying with the hills might be a very good alternative for the benefits that hills offer and for the fact that this training is simply done OUT of the track…
PS2 if it works for you this way for the speed, that’s fine; i fully understand what you mean; just a suggestion…
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If you’ve seen it and no comments, shame on you! :eek: