Interesting discussion, I recall Charlie talked about Marion’s great ‘strength’ output being clear by watching her get out of the blocks. No. 2 confirmed this and said her medball throws were massive. On a related not it’s amazing to watch individuals who are very strong a somewhat heavily muscle put force into the ground. I need to bring up one guy who seems to do this as well as fast Willie but he’s bigger, Trent Richardson. Thoughts RB34?
Yes - Marion’s block clearance and med-ball throws were just as good as many male sprinters I have coached. However, her weight room numbers were not spectacular. I’ve had many female volleyball and basketball players who were much stronger in the weight room.
I find it interesting to observe the speed-strength continuum in athletes of varying talents. It is very telling. I remember Dan Pfaff talking about Donovan Bailey having an 18m+ overhead back throw, and mentioned him power cleaning over 120kg. Fairly decent outputs that seem to grow in impressiveness the lower on the F/T curve. Comparing this to certain athletes I have coached with very very short levers. Given their twitch charactersitics (not particularly gifted), their acceleration and speed are quite low in achievement but as you extend into the longer time periods of force development their relative accomplishments grow, having decent Olympic lifts and much greater squats and deadlifts.
What I’ve been interested in is how to train an athlete based on twitch and lever types. Especially when the goal is the same.
Another area that I’ve been putting some thoughts into is how the various leverages of athletes affect how we train them for speed.
Al Vermeil has some good information on these types of questions, as he was modifying programs for taller athletes with fast twitch characteristics in the NBA.
Yes, he does -Taller athletes and TUT etc.
Fantastically well stated.
Hahahaha… I thought I was just stating what should be obvious to all of us. Nothing really fantastic about it. I guess that is the problem these days. The answers should be simple and straightforward, but come from people who have significant experience and wisdom. As Al Vermeil always tells me, “Most problems have complex mechanisms involved, but should be resolved with a simple answer and a simple solution.”
In the rush to be relevant, published and make a name for themselves, many people are writing these types of articles. Are these articles useful? For the most part - no. They are incomplete and only scratch the surface of the totality of the problems that athletes are faced with. One of my interns was telling me about how he wants to write an article. Of course, my reply was, “About what? You have very little experience. All you have is what I have told you, and you’ve forgotten most of the important points.” But, young people feel entitled to voice their opinions on-line, speaking from only information, not wisdom. The brutal irony is that it was always tough to get Charlie to write an article, and it is very hard to get Al Vermeil to publish his material (written and video). But these are the people we should be listening to.
As was stated earlier in the thread, the article in question discusses how other top sprinters have not used weights extensively and insinuates that they would have run faster if they had. And the author is basing this insinuation on what experience and wisdom? My fear is that when someone writes an article like this, (uneducated) people take it at face value and assume that heavier weights is the answer to running fast. My reply (as would be the reply of other members posting on this thread) would be to look at the entire training program and evaluate from where the best overall improvements could be derived.
Agreed.
Similar to what Vermeil has told you, I’ve often said “unlike what is required to solve the problem- the solutions are practical and intuitive.”
The problem, however, as I’ve stated for years now is that the corporate level of awareness in the industry has been misdirected by the uninformed educational venues that constitute western sport training academia (or whatever the closest version of it is)
To cheer you up:
A recent article of my own
I am curious how someone can see those fast twitch muscles, how can I get an eye for it.
number2 my grandson is 9 and he used to tell me how to do things, i haven’t had to tell him recently that he will learn little with his mouth open.
Fiber constitution is most accurately assessed via biopsy.
Practically, yet economically challenging, the Bosco jump test is an accurate assessment; however, it requires a force plate
Having worked with athletes covering a wide age range (6 years old on up) I’ve gotten all I’ve needed from assessing speed/power via short sprints, single and multiple response jumps, and throws.
Have seen autopsy slides, they are white and close to the bone. I stumbled on another chat group a while back and it was suggested domestic pigs and chickens have white meat so must be fast twitch.
I have also coached several 6 year olds who won nationals as 10/14 year olds, their training was based on motor skills and balance. I suggest that fast twitch is a buzz word often used to sound sophisticated.
It follows that zooming in further (microscope) on cross-sectional diameters would reveal this geometric aspect that also distinguishes the fiber types. The white/red is stated to be a reflection of hemodynamics in which their greater myoglobin and hemoglobin content provides the red appearance.
Motor skills and balance, certainly the key at that biological age; hence the efficacy of youth gymnastics.
As for the ‘buzz’ words, the sport system in the US is built upon them; however, I don’t think sounding sophisticated is the motivation; but rather, lack of knowledge.
Yes the prevailing buzz words go like this…
“With this exercise, we are functionally stimulating the CNS, sport-specifically targeting the fast-twitch fibres and maximizing neuromuscular recruitment, while also stretching the fascial planes of the connective tissue matrix.”
Of course, the accompanying photos shows someone jumping up and down with one leg on a Bosu ball trainer.
Shannon Sharpe, who was inducted into the Pro football HOF, triple jumped 48’ on what amounted to a challenge. I wonder what he did for activation of the fast twitch fibers? Bosu ball, battling ropes or TRX?
My money is on him just being a flat out beast of an athlete.
LOL dont forget “Ultimately firing the Posterior Chain Kinetically”
Titans WR Nate Washington is coming off a career high in receiving yards (687), but is striving to improve even more in 2011. Washington feels stronger in his legs and upper body after intensive agility work with weights in the offseason. “It makes me more powerful off the line and out of my breaks,” Washington said.
I’m quite sure that Usain Bolt was “strong enough” in 2008 and 2009.
And you’ve seen his weight workouts.
No we haven’t seen his weight program.