Where can I get a formula for the number of carbs to be consumed post exercise?
e.g.
Weight Training for 60 mins = Xgrams per Kg body weight
Or anything similar …
Getting the equivialant for protein is easy - carbs another story …
[This is for the immediately post-exercise drink]
Should it be 3 grams of CHO to every 1 gram of protein post-exercise?
The IMMEDIATELY Post exercise drink ratio should be 4:1
Carbs to Protein.
But what should that be 30grams ?
Is that enough?
Follow that up with the 20g Protein maybe 30 mins later
What is the ratio based on? Insulin response or glycemic load? I have my thoughts but this will get a little too heated. As you get “smarter” with your training your body will use fuels far better. The research is there to prove this.
Before I start I know this could be open to debate, but worth considering.
If consuming around 50-60% daily calories as carbs (near the recommended amount and which most sprinters seem happy with) this could equal anywhere between 300-500g/d for an 80kg athlete depending on the training phase. The goal is to consume the desired amount before the next training session (minus that consumed during training); high GI post training, low GI after this period. Considering the post training glycogen replenishment window where high GI is effective, consuming post training may make this task easier. There is an effective 4h window but the fastest phase is within the first 2h, therefore it could be safer to consume less carbs of moderate GI in the second 2h period. In glycogendepleted athletes, optimised glyogen storage is achieved when when 1.2-1.4g/min (75-90g/h) of carb is consumed in the first 4h after exercise and consuming every 30 minutes instead of in one amount is also more effective, (Van Loonet al 2000). Consuming more than this level will provide no additional benefits in terms of glycogen storage in muscle, (Ivy 1991).
Sprinters may only benefit from this amount in the most demanding GPP, and therefore, could go by the guideline of aiming to eat the majority of carbs after this period (low GI) and the remainder in this period ensuring the amount is no more than half for example, of that stated (just one safety guidline…experiment to adust to more suitable) , especially where body fat is an issue…monitor body fat anyway. Of course, experimentation will show a reasonable and beneficial amount for an individual to consume in either period. For sprinters the rules are less strict regarding amount of carbs post exercise, since glycogen replenishment is usually of less importance than with endurance athletes.
If glycogen replenishment post exercise is not desired, immediate post exercise protein can be increased…no carb absorption to slow down…of course 20-30g glucose maybe taken for insulin response.
Has this answered anything? 
The IMMEDIATELY Post exercise drink ratio should be 4:1
not to flame you 23 but i disagree. with the research that i have read on berardi’s site, the key protein component to the insulin release is (i think) the BCAA leucine. the 4:1 ratio came out of the university of texas study for post workout recovery that was made popular by Dr. E Burke (R.I.P.) and the recovery product “endurox R4” by pacific health labs.
You can get insulin responses via load and orintensity of the the CHO such as dextrose…ect. You can use a high load such as 4:ratio to rise the insulin or use a recovery drink with high GI responses. Also just because you repaired the muscle via insulin responses, you can only restore glycogen with CHO.
Jentjens (2001) found that despite a greater effect of a combined protein and carb drink upon insulin secretion, glycogen resynthesis was not enhanced when compared to sufficient carbs alone being consumed.
So Richard what should be do to :
(1) Maximize repair…
(2) Maximise glycogen restoration.
mmmm theres a tricky one, but if I had to replenish glycogen immediately there could be a compromise.
10-20g whey within 30 minutes prior to training or during training.
5-10% carb solution during training.
30-40g glucose immediatly post training…20-30g whey after another 20 minutes…take 30-40g glucose with the whey after higher volume training.
Optional further 30-40g glucose after another 30-60 minutes depending on diet to follow and volume of the session.
Usual meal around 60 minutes after last supp drink.
the following quotes are taken from john’s website full article here
Let’s get back to the amino acids. In addition to the requirement for rapidly delivered essential amino acids, BCAAs seem to play a big role in the recovery and increase of protein synthesis after a workout (2,7). Unpublished data presented at the 2000 Canadian Society for Exercise Physiology Meeting shed light on the importance of BCAAs in recovery (2). In endurance athletes, post workout protein synthesis rates will drop by about 30% for up to 6 hours after a training bout. Providing carbohydrates to these athletes, while favorable for increasing muscle glycogen stores, has no ability to increase protein synthesis.
However, a drink providing only the BCAA leucine was able to promote full recovery of post-workout protein synthesis levels to pre-training values. In addition, by adding carbohydrate to the beverage, protein synthesis was higher after the workout than before the workout. Since this beverage increased blood insulin levels, the author of the study concluded that insulin indeed had a synergistic effect with leucine on protein synthesis.
The results of this study and others have lead researchers to believe that within the muscle cell, there’s one particular regulatory pathway for protein synthesis that’s stimulated by insulin, but dependent on leucine (27). If insulin is present and leucine isn’t, then protein synthesis can’t maximally be stimulated. If leucine is present and insulin isn’t, protein synthesis can’t be maximally stimulated. But give 'em both and look out!
Since leucine has this great impact on muscle protein synthesis and since levels of leucine, much like glutamine, decline during exercise, it only makes sense to supplement with leucine after workouts (28). In the end, it appears that leucine, along with protein and carbs, will lead to the greatest increases in protein synthesis.
Originally posted by nightmare4d
[quote]
The IMMEDIATELY Post exercise drink ratio should be 4:1
not to flame you 23 but i disagree. with the research that i have read on berardi’s site, the key protein component to the insulin release is (i think) the BCAA leucine. the 4:1 ratio came out of the university of texas study for post workout recovery that was made popular by Dr. E Burke (R.I.P.) and the recovery product “endurox R4” by pacific health labs. [/quote]
No problem Nightmare - flame away!!!
There is no such thing as ‘flaming’ - only help - and it’s ALL appreciated.
Thanks guys for the input and debate - I’m just trying to develop the best strategy.
Exactly, that’s where the 4:1 formula comes from (Burke).
However Berardi reccommends basically a 2:1 formula for Strength Athletes
Links (Burke)
http://www.poweringmuscles.com/musclerecovery.asp?article_number=4
and …
http://www.poweringmuscles.com/musclerecovery.asp?article_number=9
Links JB
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/importance.htm
One reason for this debate is that too often I just grab the post workout shake tub read the instructions listed “1 Scoop in 500ml of water” and do as it says - without asking - is this instruction for a 250lb Weightlifting Gorilla or a 175lb endurnace runner???
Just me - the usual doubting questioning Thomas …
:saint:
Originally posted by Richard Hand
mmmm theres a tricky one, but if I had to replenish glycogen immediately there could be a compromise.10-20g whey within 30 minutes prior to training or during training.
5-10% carb solution during training.
30-40g glucose immediatly post training…20-30g whey after another 20 minutes…take 30-40g glucose with the whey after higher volume training.
Optional further 30-40g glucose after another 30-60 minutes depending on diet to follow and volume of the session.
Usual meal around 60 minutes after last supp drink.
This is exactly what I am wondering about …
I am trying to decide on the optimum strategy for post workout recovery.
The only one above I might change is the “5-10% carb solution during training” - which can be a little high for some people.
I am actually currently following this protocol -
“30-40g (Actually 30gms in 500ml of Water) glucose immediatly post training…20-30g whey (Actually 20gms also in 500ml of water)after another 20 minutes”
But I was wondering should there not be some carbs in there also???
This combo “…take 30-40g glucose with the whey after higher volume training” is the one I also am questioning or trying to determine the correct ratio for…
Ok, guys I’ll get back in a while - going to go off and do a bit more reading …
Aim:
Find Optimal
[ol]
[li]Pre-
[/li][li]During-
[/li][li]Post-
[/li][/ol]
Recovery Nutrition formula - For Training Session Types …
[list=A]
[li]Weights/CNS/Speed type Sessions
[/li][li]Tempo-Type Endurance Sessions
[/li][/list]
Proposed:
Athlete Weight 195lbs or 89kg Approx.
Workout A: Speed Work 60mins & Weights 90 mins
30 mins Pre-Training - 10gms Whey Protein, 5gms Carb
During-Training - 5-10% Carb Soln
Post-Training - 35 grams Protein, 70 grams Carbs in a 8% Soln for best Absorption? - Thats’ like 2litres?
[0.4g/kg Protein Hydrolysate, 0.8g/kg Glucose/Glucose polymer (1:1 Glucose:Maltodextrin), Insulin-stimulating AA’s]
30-60 mins Post-Training - 35 grams Protein, 70 grams Carbs (same as above)
2-3 hrs Post-Training : Normal Eating Resumes
Workout B: Tempo 60-90 mins, Endurance/Interval @ 65% effort
30mins Pre-Training - 10gms Whey Protein, 5gms Carb (or necessary at all?)
During-Training - Water or 5% Carb Soln
Post-Training - Water or 10 grams Protein, 40 grams Carbs in a ?% Soln for best Absorption?
60 mins Post-Training : Normal Eating Resumes
Comments:
The Berardi Figures have extremely high qtys of high GI’s??
Any need for High GI Carbs post Tempo?
What % Soln should we aim for?
Nightmare, it does seem both carbs and leucine are needed for greater enhancement of protein synthesis, but is the leucine in whey not suffucient?
No23, I think the 4:1 ratio is set for gastric emptying during exercise so carb absorption is not slowed too much. After exercise gastric emtying is important if glycogen replenishment is of primary importance, but if protein synthesis was most important, the ratio could be 2:1 or even 1:1 on lower carb diets. However, it may still be best to take carbs before protein post training, therefore this would be irrelevant.
I am actually currently following this protocol - ‘‘30-40g (Actually 30gms in 500ml of Water) glucose immediatly post training…20-30g whey (Actually 20gms also in 500ml of water)after another 20 minutes’’ But I was wondering should there not be some carbs in there also???
I only added extra carbs as an option for higher volume training in case carb consumption was an issue. Without extra carbs taken with the protein, the insulin response from the carbs immediately post exercise also provides for the aa uptake, but extra carbs could be taken if desired.
Thanks Richard,
Point taken.
So a ratio of 2:1, or 1:1 where Protein Synthesis is most important - after Strength work
and…
Possibly 4:1 where carb uptake is key - i.e. Tempo?
How about the % soln - is that a major issue?
No23, for these 2 situations these ratios do seem reasonable whether consuming the pros and carbs together or seperate. The % solution becomes more important when hydration is the key whether during or post training, however, even after a training session with little sweating, some people will find diluting the drink well avoids risk of cramp.
Richard, in the Post Workout Formula for Workout A above Berardi ‘reccomends’
Post-Training - 35 grams Protein, 70 grams Carbs.
Thats alot of High GI Carbs post-workout isn’t it?
And for intense sessions he reccomends this x2
Originally posted by no23
Post-Training - 35 grams Protein, 70 grams Carbs in a 8% Soln for best Absorption? - Thats’ like 2litres?
how does that work out. I would have thought its just about 1.3 litres (1 litre water = 1000g). Have I got it wrong?