hmb or colustrum?

i have done as much research as i wanna…just keen for opinions. Definately going to try hmb so far.

My plan is to only take it just before high workloads and phases. e.g weights and when i am doing speed/special endurance stuff.

Is it something that shud be used everyday or is every third day fine for example?

hmb? is that short for…?


Actually it’s beta hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate

There are cheaper and more effective supplements than HMB. While studies have shown that it does have some promise, you’d have to take nearly 20 grams a day. Not to mention that HMB is absorbed, and about 50% of an ingested dose is excreted unchanged in the urine.

Also there was a study done a few years back in which 40 experienced resistance-trained athletes were randomized to receive 0, 3 or 6 grams of HMB daily for 28 days. No significant differences were noted in whole body anabolic/catabolic status, muscle and liver enzyme efflux, fat/bone-free mass, fat mass, percent body fat, or leg press one rep max (1RM) strength.

Kreider RB, Ferreira M, Wilson M, Almada AL. Effects of calcium-beta hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) supplementation during resistance-training on markers of catabolism, body composition and strength. Int J Sports Med. 1999; 20:503-509.

Another study in Australia by Dr. Gary Slater, gave 3grams per day of HMB (as dicatated by manufacturers and the Iowa State study) or placebo for six weeks to experienced athletes who were training with weights. The HMB supplements did not help subjects increase strength or muscle mass.

International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism, 11: 384-396, 2001

Both of these studies were third party, double-blind placebo controlled studies (aka gold standard studies).

Pure colostrum protein (not just the IgG isolate from) is probably one of the greatest supplements a serious athlete can take. 30g per day is absolutely phenomenol. But at the rate is can be produced at this time, you are looking at a discounted retail price of $60 per pound. ImmunoGro is 45% IgG and absolutely the next best option when added to a high quality protein and works very well at priming the digestive tract. Think of this as an overall health inducing system regulator ( that is what the peptides actually do )

Hydroxy methyl butyrates (most varieties) have a profound affect upon intracellular cholesterol production and thus cellular integrity. They also affect various other metabolic feedbacks, but it is the anticatabolic maintanance that is key. And it is really only affective during heavy training and dieting down periods. Think of a glass that is almost entirely full. This is your body’s nutrient supply when you are eating well and training moderately. Adding more to the mix, HMB for example, will just “spill” over the top. When you diet down or train maximally, the volume in your glass becomes seriously reduced and adding specific items to the mix will then have a profound affect.

why exactly do you think colostrum would be of such benefit?
my supplier is getting some in stock soon at a decent price approx $30 -35US /lb ($110/kg Australian)
i wasnt going to bother, but my physiology lecturer is doing research into it and his little blurb about it the other day in lectures sort of spiked my interest
my supplier is labelling it at this time as new zeland bovine colostrum is this the same as you refer to?

thank you

From what I understood HMB was crap.

I lived next to a dairy farm for 14 years NO WAY EVER I would take colostrum :smiley:

From what I’ve read, HMB is most effective when training is more strenuous (e.g. higher volume, switching to a new routine, dieting) and when it is taken in divided doses throughout the day due to a short half-life (with more taken in and around your workout). So maybe 500mg-1g doses several times a day and 1-2g before/during/after your workout (less on non-training days).

I’m giving it a try in a BSL custom workout blend, and from what I can tell so far I seem to be recovering better. It can be a pretty pricey supplement and I’m still not sure wether I’ll stick with it or not.

If it’s in a protein blend, what makes you think it’s the HMB anyway? I though all the hype about this stuff died out years ago. When did it make a comeback. Maybe everyone’s thrown out their old bodybuilding magazines by now.

I’ve used a similar blend without the HMB before.

I think there’s interest in it again because it’s (relatively) cheaper than it used to be, and so higher dosing is more reasonable now. So I figured I would give it another try. Like I said, not sure if I’ll stick with it as it’s still an expensive supplement.

500mg to 1g doses will do nothing. You’d get better results from a few grams of BCAAs.

As an interesting side note - the study that kicked off the HMB phenomenon back in the mid 90’s has more holes in it than a blow up doll. :smiley: I can’t belive that the study ever made it in any respected journal.

The group that had the largest increase in lean body mass (who received 3.0 g HMB/day) was also the group with the lowest lean body mass and muscle strength to begin with! Tell me that the company funding the study didn’t stack the deck in favor of HMB! This group was expected to gain more than the placebo group, who already had a larger lean body mass!

Also, this study was not diet controlled, so the dietary leucine intake was not known, and no control was put on the amount of calories each group was consuming. Not controlling the diet in the subjects is a serious flaw in any study trying to determined the efficacy of a product. :rolleyes:

I know there have been studies since, though the Iowa State study is always the one that is referenced as proof it works.

HMB is simply one of those supplements that looks interesting in theory and on paper, but doesn’t actually pan out in real life.

That’s divided doses multiple times a day. 3g total is the bare minimum I’m using, and more like 10g on workout days.

I agree that the study you mentioned has some serious flaws.

Here’s the thread that got me interested in giving it a try:

Particularly the articles Zeppelin posted the links to.

You’re right, it’s possible that I would get similar or better results from BCAA’s or even just plain leucine. I’ve gotten good results from BCAA’s in the past. However, given what I’ve read recently I decided that it would be worth giving it another try.

He’s posting links to a website that has an interest in the sale of HMB. There is alot of science that can be applied to make HMB look incredible on paper.

The first link posted the writer references his own results - while taking other supplements at the same time. Okay fine.

The second page he talks about the studies that show HMB in a positive light.

Study A is the original study by Nissen. Funded by the maker of HMB. See notes above about the shortcomings of this study.

Study B has HMB stacked with creatine - and an interesting note is that the CR+HMB group gains more weight and muscle - but also more fat too. I find this very strange. It tells me that something going on with the CR+HMB group. This is probably the most promising study for HMB.

Study C is on cancer patients who took HMB, arginine and glutamine vs. the placebo group - not really relevant to HMB’s effficacy at least not for athletes.

On this page:

He talks about the Krieder study and proceeds to playd down the results, calling the study “flawed” (though strangely the Nissen is just fine :rolleyes: )

For example he questions the extra 395 calories the non-HMB group ate, but fails to mention that the control group consumed a a vitamin/mineral fortified carbohydrate/protein powder - voila there are your extra calories. Other dietary controls were in place and athletes consumed nearly identical diets.

He also fails to mention that the both the control group and the HMB group samples were measured for creatine kinase (CK) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), which are markers of muscle tissue damage, and that they showed no significant differences. The only significant difference was that HMB supplementation resulted in significant increases in serum and urinary HMB concentrations.

There are also questions raised about the type of training these athletes did, and counts “no training control” as a study flaw, but doesn’t note that the subjects were 28 NCAA division I-A college football players undergoing winter/spring off-season resistance/agility training.

You can read the complete Krieder study abstract here:

You find that there are no holes or “flaws” in this study and it was performed by two of the most respected researchers around.

The lesson here is that when a site sells the supplement you’re looking at, chances are they’re going to play up whatever strengths they can find on it. The site above is a perfect example. I’d do the same thing. Hell if I wanted to I could make it look like smoking is beneficial for athletes! :stuck_out_tongue:

I agree i wouldn’t take it mixed with something else… same as i wouldn’t take it in capsule form. You have no idea what it is or how much of if it is hmb!

I already take protein supp but need that extra kick for training. From the circles of athlete’s i train with they have had much success with hmb. My only worry is i can’t afford to lose much more bodyfat. I’m hoping it allows me to increase the intensity of my training.

I believe colustrum though has the potential to be huge from the little research i have done. And in reference to a previous post i believe a New zealand company is leading the way

You can read the complete Krieder study abstract here:

You find that there are no holes or “flaws” in this study and it was performed by two of the most respected researchers around.

I can see one (possible) flaw. Was the type of training the athletes doing the type of training that would benefit from the use of HMB? As I believe Lyle mentioned in the thread, it may be useful during training where there is a great deal of eccentric stress. Also, what type of training were the athletes engaged in prior to the study? If training in the study wasn’t significantly stressful compared to what they were doing before then perhaps HMB wouldn’t make much of an impact; theoretically HMB would be most useful during times of great training stress or when there’s a significant change in training.

The lesson here is that when a site sells the supplement you’re looking at, chances are they’re going to play up whatever strengths they can find on it. The site above is a perfect example. I’d do the same thing. Hell if I wanted to I could make it look like smoking is beneficial for athletes! :stuck_out_tongue:

I’d do the same thing too :stuck_out_tongue: Of course I realize that the articles are posted on a site that sells HMB. Naturally anyone would want to make their products sound good if they stand to gain from it financially. However, I’ve also used BSL products in the past and I was pleased with the results and feel that they’re a trustworthy company. I’ve also followed many of Derek’s posts at Avant, and one thing I know that he’s a meticulous person when it comes to evaluating supplements and recording his results. Of course it’s anecdotal evidence, but considering the source I think it’s valuable. So, given the above, and given the anecdotal evidence from several individuals who have experimented with higher doses of HMB (1.5g to 3g seems to be the norm used in most studies), I felt that it was worth giving it a shot. Not to mention that Clemson seems to be using it with his athletes and I’ve found the suggestions in his posts to be useful as well.

yes anything that can let you train harder and longer is worth trying. Thing I would be worried about is how the body will cope with a increase workout if ur going 100% e.g. block starts etc.

My opinion on HMB…not a good value and it gives very little bang for your buck. Still the membrane support is vital for athletes and has a lot of variability in CK response between subjects (read DI athletes) is a factor in muscle damage studies and research. Local eccentric exercise will have high plasma levelsof approximately 2,000 U/L. Many studies have documented levels in the range of 500-34,500 U/L. The key is the timing of the CK response…too fast and the tissue will have necrosis. The better test (rarely done because of cost and expertise) is assessing the clearance rates for CK isoforms is the MM1/MM3 ratio done by the big boys.

Overall if you are deciding to use HMB remember that it only helps support the basal lamina and will not help the following.

A-band disruption

Z-line dissolution

and the worst is fiber clotting that happens with stupid conditioning programs.

Mitochondria stated that even HMB has limits and he found that football players (DI athletes don’t require it if they use hydro whey daily after intense training and were not doing speed work on tracks in additon to heavy lifting) but he found that Vitamin E was vital taken after training (similar to the berardi protocol). possible production of free oxygen radicals which are extremely reactive with the phospholipids making up cell membranes, rendering ineffective in holding isoenzymes. If they are getting pounded on the track HMB should be added unless they are doing squats of enormous poundages. He also stated the anabolic status of kids that age is of an overflow rendering HMB useless unless they are at their genetic ceiling.

My suggestions is for the ideal program and HMB again is not for everyone. I work with only 8 athletes (besides my HS teams) that have budgets that allow for muliple sessions of ART per week, have a supplement and food budget of 1 grand a month, and pay my fees! Those that are taking HMB should make sure other things are done first and only add it later.

I wouldn’t bother taking HMB unless you are doing three workouts and your lifts are near elite DI football players. Some people don’t respond to creatine and the percent is large with HMB. I think the product is effective for those wanting prevent necrosis of myofibrils. Again, when you start taking certain things is key…

Clarkson, P.M., F.S. Apple, W.C. Byrnes, K.M. McCormick, and P. Triffletti. Creatine kinase isoforms following isometric exercise. Muscle & Nerve. 10: 41-44, 1987.

Nosaka, K., and P.M. Clarkson. Variability in serum creatine kinase response after eccentric exercise of the elbow flexors. Int’l. Jn. Spor. Med. 17(2): 120-127, 1996.

Ebbeling, C.B., and P.M. Clarkson. Exercise-induced muscle damage and adaptation. Sports Med. 7: 207-234, 1989.

appreciate your reply clemson.

I currently run on track 4 days a week and do a stair session a week and lift 3 times a week(two if those are oly lift sessions). I have already purchased some so if I will post anything worthwhile if i get reasonable gains.

I saw there were some studies showing high doses of pure colostrum (Symbiotics) enhanced performance and increased LBM. I believe the studies were sponsored by the manufacturer, however, so I don’t know how legitimate they are. I think it has some promise for athletes as an overall immune enhancer and improving the uptake of nutrients. Hopefully, the price will continue to fall. It’s on sale for 80.00 bucks for 24 oz. of powder on

they make a fantastic product…very expensive though!