I agree with you. As a matter of fact, I think that too often, football players focus too much on getting big and not enough on getting strong and certainly not enough on power. Fewer still look at power to weight ratios which may be the most important factor for skill positions.
Form follows function. I tend to be of the philosophy that you should train for the speed, quickness and strength you need on the field and let your body weight sort itself out.
However, one caveat…I understand that regression of strength gains from neural adaptations is much faster than regression from structural adaptations. So in-season for a football player, when injuries may keep one from training at an appropriate intensity during the week, the strucutral adaptations (which are present even with a neural focused training program) can help to retain strength levels.
dont get me wrong guys… i totally agree with the strength aspect… and right now im on a strength based routine anyways… what i said i DONT agree on is training (with weights) the same muscles three times in one week. that is a 1950’s style that quickly leads to overtraining… training them once per week and training them correctly allows you to recover, grow, and increase neural adaptations… your CNS can only do so much and the same muscle 3 times per week is pointless… ill stick wiht my current training… thanks for the sprint help tho xlr8 and david w!
1950’s style? Tell me you’re taking the piss… Most elite sports people will do multiple strength sessions per week (elite weightlifters may do more than 12!). Damn, even body builders do two body part sessions per week.
To necissitate a weeks recovery, the stimulus would need to be enormous.
Auxillary exercises: Hyper/Glute Ham Raise, Woodchopper
Arguements can be made for numerous other exercises, it depends on specifics. I would generally only SUBSTITUTE one exercise with another. If an exercise IS added, volume must be reduced elsewhere.
If you keep the volume manageable weights 2-3 times a week for the entire body is no problem at all. Personally I can’t handle doing speed/plyos/and full body on one day. Normally I’ll hit legs immediately after speed/plyos and upper body the next day.
I do the following main exercises:
back and front squat
snatch grip deads
powercleans
jump squats
flat bench
standing shoulder press
chins
reverse leg press
Assistance/core
Med ball work
Weighted dips
Dumbell bicep hammer curls
Hypers, reverse hypers, hanging leg raises etc
If you keep the sets around 3-5 and the reps in the 2-5 range at 80% or more of 1RM you will not overtrain if you have proper recovery modalities in place.
For example a short speed workout: (I’ll rotate exercises depending on the plyometric component and the distances trained)
warmup, drills, strides, accels
4 x 60 with 6-8 minutes recovery
3 x 30 with 4-5 minutes recovery
plyos:
3 sets double leg hops up stairs
2 sets tuck jumps or 2 sets sprint bounds or 2 sets depth jumps
Weights:
3 sets jumpsquats
3 sets backsquats
3 sets snatch grip deads
That’s it.
upper body is
3 sets flat bench
3 sets chins
3 sets standing shoulder press
2 sets dips
2 sets single arm dumbell curl
just got to say how much i’ve enjoyed this thread. It has made me think real hard about the principles that have been presented. LakeMountD, if you hadn’t stuck to your guns, then David W and xlr8 would not have taken the time to explain the thought behind the program they suggest for you. And i really appreciate David W who, despite preaching to stubborn ear’s, kept right on giving his training principles in more detail.
Personally, my training has been more along the lines of LakemountD, however, the principles that David W presented makes sense in a different way. And i think i’m gonna give them a go for a few months and see how things go.
Anyway, good luck with the try-out, but remember unless your goin out for the O-line or D-tackle SPEED KILLS. Just look at the miami hurricanes, other than their interior guys, everyonelse just flies. John Vilma, at middle-linebacker is under 225 but is strong (not big) and FAST.
I think its only at the pro level that size starts to win out, but only because EVERYBODY is fast. Good luck!!!
dont get me wrong… xlr8, david w, and all of them have extensive sprinting knowledge… way behind my knowledge base i do admit… unfortunately the lifting principles are out of date. i have trained many different ways and under many different coaches. the best strength and/or size routine is what i am doing… i mean i wish the luck to everyone…
AGAIN I DONT MEAN TO BE STUBBORN I REALLY DO APPRECIATE THE SPRINT ADVICE! ILL START SOON AND KEEP YOU GUYS UPDATED ON MY PROGRESS!
dammit I wrote out a long reply and then lost it!!
I’ll summarize.
The training is not outdated.
Weights are purely complementary to sprinting and not the core component.
If you are looking for max hypertrophy at the expense of limit strength/power and explosiveness then training a bodypart once a week with 15-20 sets, 6 different exercises and 8-12 reps is the way to go.
Performing speed/weights 2-3 times a week (depending on athlete level) with proper recovery modalities in place will not lead to overtraining or CNS drain.
In my short speed work I do 9 sets total for lower body. That is VERY low volume for a trained athlete. you also have to consider density in your training as well and total tonnage lifted.
I have tried virtually every weight program out there as well. This program has by far been the best for me. I am 12 pounds lighter (less bodyfat) and 20% stronger through all my lifts with a fraction of the volume I was doing before.
Also I am only fitting in training between a 60 hour work week and other commitments.
Would this prescription change for a developing athlete? Is the ‘base’ too narrow for a immature athlete? I’m thinking along the lines of how Charlie stripped the number of excercises Ben performed as his performance rose…
Chris,
nice post. Evidence of how condensing leads to better results?! LOL
I also think that standing shoulder press a critical upper body exercise for sprinters as well. I would add that to the list of core exercises. (Even more important than bench IMO)
Wow. That is quite a statement. However, the fastest athletes ever to walk the face of the earth have used lifting principles as outlined by Charlie (and they continue to use them today.) I defy you to name one sub-10 sprinter that uses a 3 day split as the basis for their strength training. But perhaps you are right and they are all totally out of date and are succeeding in spite of their training. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even when it is totally contradicted by the facts
Secondly, the most powerful athletes in the world - olympic style weightlifters - train (as David W said) up to 12x per week using full body lifts in each session. As a matter of fact, if you are training in the snatch or clean and jerk, a split routine doesn’t even make any sense because each evercise hits the whole body anyway.
It sounds to me like your strength routine has taken a few too many HITs from the bodybuilding BS that is out there. While I don’t doubt that you are making good progress with it, remember that at the novice level, virtually anything will work. The thing that you don’t seem to realize is that training principles for building size are quite different from the principles for maximal strength and athletic performance. Even saying that (your) one routine is the best for size AND strength shows that you don’t understand this fact.
If you were doing powercleans and press maybe but not with powercleans alone. In the powerclean you are just racking the weight and not performing any overhead pressing movement. I would still include them
again delldell i am not at this forum for lifting advice but instead about my sprinting routine… i want the knowledge of xlr8 and dave w but only on my sprint training… i just want them to tell me if that is sufficient volume and if that is a good plan…
LakeMountD, have you spent much time developing your running mechanics as correcting basic faults though out the various phases of the 40 will have an immediate effect on your time ,and will fit better into your program.
Also this thread brings up an interesting point regarding the optimal power to weight ratios for a (americian) footballer vs. a sprinter. Surely there are long periods of a players development when neural changes have to come second to structural development due to the greater requirement for absolute power.
The problem Lake, is that asking for a sprint program separate from the lifting program simply doesn’t make any sense. All of your CNS-based training (sprint, plyo, weight) is focused on raising some portion of the force-velocity curve. So lifting and sprinting are just two ends of the spectrum on the same curve. Both will raise the entire curve to some degree.
But at least as important is that all of these training modalities have significant impact on the CNS. Since CNS reserve is the limiting factor in high performance training, you have to take them all into account when putting together a program.
Now, you are welcome to follow whatever lifting program you would like but you have to understand that to some degree, your lifting program is your sprinting program (and vice-versa.) So coming in here and saying that you have the lifting stuff handled but need help with the sprinting just shows that you don’t understand this and reduces your credibility as far as the effectiveness of your lifting regime as well.
I’m not saying that the CFTS is the only was to go - “there is more than one way to skin a cat” is often heard on this board - but it is a solid proven program. Make changes at your own risk - and only once you fully understand the base program…it’s clear you are not yet at that point.
To answer your question “if that is sufficient volume and if that is a good plan”, the answer is: I can’t tell about the volume because I don’t even know what your lifting volume is and No, I don’t think it is a good plan because of all of the reasons that DavidW and others laid out earlier in this thread.
