High pulls more value than snatches? 
High pulls better than reactive hang snatches?
Squats to develop limit strength. Hang snatches to develop RFD and reactive strength…
Is it really necessary to do a snatch rather than a snatch high-pull? For an athlete…cost-benefit, risk-reward…especially if he’s that big.
How much of a difference is the power output? Is it worth a messed up shoulder? Couldn’t he do powerball snatch throws like Clemson recommends?
Yes
and
YES
what is the value of an overhead lock-out to improving one’s vertical jump?
or
what part of a snatch is the most specific, in the develoment of VJ?
I have come to the above conclusion after working with women who’s lower body strength, demands greater pull loading for VJ development than their upperbody can handle in snatch or any overhead versions. The concept here is just as sound in the case of one who has the upper body strength but is only looking to improve VJ
And while I dont disagree with the value of Squats, it doesnt to my read, appear that he is lacking in the area where squats would be of prime value???
At his size and strength levels, inhabition may be part of the problem. Landings will more directly address that than will Squats. Also will more specificaly address neural requirement to improve VJ.
DW, I respect your many posts, but they often seem to default to a Competition Lifter’s training approach rather than a whole athlete approach.
Not diss-ing you, just telling you how your posts sometimes read to me.
High pulls are typically performed with loads in excess of those possible in the competitive lifts. This means the training stimulus is further to the left of the F:V curve.
Hip snatches are a unique exercise in that they can be performed with a stretch shortening cycle. THe kinematics is actually very similar to that utilised in a CMJ. Being a hang derivative it can also be learned in a much shorter timescale
I am not against the use of medicine balls to improve RFD although they do not provide the immediate feeback on performance that do OLs.
V.Rarely is overhead strength a limiting factor (even in females). As for shoulder injuries, I have yet to witness one first hand in competition or training.
There seems to be a growing resistance to the Olympic lifts in S&C circles and an eagerness to jump on the Westside bandwagon. N0 one however who has witnessed a double body weight snatch would ever question the effectiveness of OL training.
[b]As I stated above, High Pulls should be performed differently, situationally. Heavier and or Lighter as the case may be.
There is a growing number of shoulder injuries here in the States. This along with my assertion that there are females who’s lower body strength training requirements can overload their upper body strength limits finds me asking again. David, what is the specific value in the overhead component of a Snatch or varience there of, to improving one’s VJ?
The High Pull is derived from the Snatch so I am not straying too far from the clear value of Oly Lifts. Just trying to employ a better mouse trap so to speak.[/b]
Then why couldn’t you do hip snatch high pulls? Is the risk of getting under the bar really worth it? I don’t think so. Also, why try to mimic the kinematics of a CMJ when you can actually practice the real thing?
The reason people are shying away from olympic lifts, especially the snatch, is that learning technique takes too long. It’s a sport in itself. In addition, there is a greater risk of injury. Even world champions dislocate their elbows and shoulders. Look at the pictures from Canada.
I would add more box jumps since the impact is lower and the amount of signalling is high from volume. Add in that heavy squats will improve less percentage wise as a RFD movement it may be better to do cleans with various starting heights.
Here is another factor…olympic lifters are pros at what they do…I don’t see to many strength COACHES but I see plenty of TRAINERS. arguements on joint angles and balance (add in core strength ) is now the trend while athletes technique sucks!
-What amount of volume do you believe is appropriate for box jumps?
-Would these be separate from limit strength workouts…i.e. alternating/maintaining limit strength and dynamic/RFD workouts?
There seems to be a growing resistance to the Olympic lifts in S&C circles and an eagerness to jump on the Westside bandwagon. N0 one however who has witnessed a double body weight snatch would ever question the effectiveness of OL training.[/QUOTE]
True, but I feel coaches are leaning more towards a WSB style of training, because Oly lifting requires so much time and technique. So by a time basis, WSB is more economical.
I love the olympic lifts just hate the limits of time and circumstances I see…you get someone for 6 weeks and must get results daily!
dell dell…the prescriptions are based on athlete’s backgrounds and will vary. I think that both dynamic and limit work can be done with of course subtle differences. I like adding in 20 jumps and vary as many elements as possible or even divide up as many movement variables. We have a giant carpet stair of 32 inches per stair and can use run ups or static starts. I do this with individual clients but teams we don’t do plyos anymore. Since we can’t use the grass because of the new seeding we are limited to various paths similar to pure elastic work.
Clemson, could you please post an example of pure elastic work? Thanks.
I think technical demands of lifting depends very much on the athlete (and the coach).
I don’t think the power versions/hang versions are difficult to learn compared to the classic lifts. From observation, those with bad technique in the OL derivatives also have bad form in squats/deadlifts etc.
I have read in the past;
1:Jumps have been contraindicated for heavier athletes (in terms of BMI) on the grounds of increased chance of injury.
2:Risk of injury from jumps is much higher than the risk of injury from snatches.
With ideal technique on the snatch there is no lock-out movement, the arms are already locked out before the bar presses down on them.
I’ll try to find the sources supporting this argument. Just my opinions (so far).
Squatting WS style and getting accustomed to bands probably takes as long as learning the hip snatch (assuming good coaching). If time is limited med ball throws are probably the most effective (safe) option.
Squatting WS style and getting accustomed to bands probably takes as long as learning the hip snatch (assuming good coaching).[/QUOTE]
David, I’ll have to repectfully disagree w/ this statement. I’ve been involved w/ both, and w/ very qualified individuals. I’ve worked w/ 2 former competitors, and one olympic coach, and still feel as though I can not handle loads as heavy as I am capable of. I felt comfortable w/ the bands within one session. So do many other people. In some instances, I’ll actually use bands to help teach proper motor patterns to an individual who needs work on a squat or a pressing move.
Some ideas from Science & Practice that have not been brought up.
Injury risk is high.
Don’t use drop jumps with athletes with training experience less than 3-4 years
Accommodation occurs very quickly - don’t use them for more than 1-2 mesocycles, and to avoid accomodation weight should be added workout 3, followed by unloading and increasing height of box.
“Drills for training the stretch-shortening cycle should not be limited to drop jumps, though they often are.” (p.161)
Although he doesn’t say anything about heavier athletes not doing them 
I think ‘altitude’ jumps are advised against, under yielding exercises, because of injury risk and lack of specificity (unless required in sport - landings e.g gymnastics).
Are box jumps going to overload enough for progress?