Help - Advice Needed Please

[kitkat1]

@tc0710

Well the status of an organism is relative to everything that organism has experienced upto that point in time. Looking at a single training week in isolation and trying to say this is and isn’t right is quite difficult because you don’t see the context in which the programme is set.

I’m looking at Phil’s programme in relation to what I do with athletes of a similar standard and thinking that the volumes and intensities are probably not that far removed from what I do and my athletes are running the times i expect. It is perfectly possible for an athlete to come out and run 7.7 in thier first race and then drop to 7.3 in thier second - in fact it happened last week with one of my athletes. Now why did that happen? I have no idea and either does he. But i don’t care because i knew he was in form to run 7.3 so i didn’t worry.

The shape of the athlete will change from day to day, minute to minute (nerves, loss of concentration etc) but the calibre should stay consistant. If you monitor SE times you should know what they are capable of and if your programme is delivering the goods. Then if the athlete doesn’t perform it isn’t the programme it is something else. So if it is something else (like race modelling/poor tactics) you should be able to address it fairly quickly. Hence why i suggested a few mini race modelling sessions.

IF changes are needed what are we going to do? We have already planned and developed up to this point. At this moement the body is ready to handle what we have given it to handle. If you give it something new it isn’t ready for then how can it adapt to it? Phil is 2 weeks away from competition so if it is a problem of planning there isn’t much you can do now - other than very minor changes adding a session here or deleting one there.

But if it is an issue with planning then he must have seen it coming - that or he wasn’t monitoring his sessions. And if it is a planning issue then you will probably see it across the squad rather than with one or two individuals.

This is the working and intellect of a gold medal Coach.

[PhilG]

Have since discovered over the festive period that one of the guys came down with a stomach virus a few days after the meeting. He has picked up since but is still a bit tired so have been taking things easy with him. He did a speed endurance session on Saturday and his hamstring began to tighten so called it quits before any damage was done hopefully. Not sure about the other guy, he is a student and has been at home over the holidays. I get the feeling that a short to long programme may not suit him and that long to short may be a better option, concentrate more on his strengths.

[PhilG]

@tinsoldier

Hi philg, I will throw my tuppence-worth in too if thats ok?

Bear in mind I dont know the back ground work your athleets have done to be at the stage of training in their training year so Im playing a little bit of devils advocate with some of my questions and observations!

With regards to your lifting, I,m not sure why you would regard the step up as being not specifc enough while GM and DL are. Not specific in what way - movement patterns/muscles targetted/muscles used/time of year/phase of training? I think step ups, or various types of step ups, can be really useful for many reasons (another discussion!)

Also, depending on what angle of specifity we are looking at, surely cleans would be alot more specific work than DL, and would be done lighter and more explosive - managed right there shouldnt be an overload of a CNS demand through the training week.

Again, with the single lifts, if you have worked up to this with higher volume then they could be ok at this time of year, but I would question the value of single squats with such heavy weight right now.

I dont rate dumbbell running arms at all. Any reason you like them included?

With regards to the video aspect - briefly - static camera position with neutral background, dont zoom in or out during the filming and dont make the angles too tight at each end of the run. I think most indoor straights have a fairly neutral background like birmingham/sheffield/gateshead.

As an additional observation - you dont appear to do anything more than a 60m run? Is this as your athletes are purely aiming to run 60m indoors? I have worked with a sub 7.35 60m female who still maintained her special endurance work with real quality emphasis while performing well over 60m.

Thanks Tin, re the step ups - movement patterns is the reason.

Cleans - I found they were wiped after doing them post speed or speed endurance, we still do hang cleans though.

Deadlifts and Good Mornings - just to clarify we had a spate of hamstring injuries and on reflection I was not training the posterior chain enough hence their inclusion. Yeah I know they don’t have the triple extsion of the olympic lifts but they dop train the correct movement patterns of the glutes and ham’s.

Why do you not like dumbell drives ?

Thanks for all of your comments and advice. Hope to red your responses soon.

[PhilG]

He’s a good un.

[tinsoldier]

Hi philg
Im not keen on the dumbbell sprinters arms for a few reasons -
Holding a dumbbell means a tighter grip and therefore tense forearms and shoulders
The weight requires alot of body posture adjustment to move the DB at speed - most people will close the chest and tighten up too much
The DB use alot of momentum to move through the range and therefore the shoulders arent actively driving through the range, just catching it at either end

As for step ups, I think if you look at the movement patterns they can be made to be pretty specific, there are many ways to do them of course. The angles the knees and hips go through arent dissimilar to the extension that happens in a DL, with the addition of the hips travelling forwards and upwards, while the recovery leg follows a running action ie heel to glute and finishes in A position.

Russian curls could be a useful addition for the hamsting work your athletes are doing.

[system]

@tinsoldier

As an additional observation - you dont appear to do anything more than a 60m run? Is this as your athletes are purely aiming to run 60m indoors? I have worked with a sub 7.35 60m female who still maintained her special endurance work with real quality emphasis while performing well over 60m.

I think Phil is just following CFs Van’04 programme which is all based on distances of no more than 60m. However, this programme is purely split runs so while you havn’t worked on running the curve you will probably have a fair level of SE - perhaps enough to run a 200m indoors.

[PhilG]

I think Phil is just following CFs Van’04 programme which is all based on distances of no more than 60m. However, this programme is purely split runs so while you havn’t worked on running the curve you will probably have a fair level of SE - perhaps enough to run a 200m indoors.

Thats right TC, we havn’t planned on doing any 200s indoors this winter so have stuck with the Van’04 plan as it looked ideal for what we required. The guy who ran the 7.8 before Christmas ran at the weekend and got down to 7.52. His 1st 30m was poor but 2nd 30m was as fast as another guy I coach who ran 7.25. I have the figures at home (at work at the moment).

[PhilG]

@tinsoldier

Hi philg
Im not keen on the dumbbell sprinters arms for a few reasons -
Holding a dumbbell means a tighter grip and therefore tense forearms and shoulders
The weight requires alot of body posture adjustment to move the DB at speed - most people will close the chest and tighten up too much
The DB use alot of momentum to move through the range and therefore the shoulders arent actively driving through the range, just catching it at either end

As for step ups, I think if you look at the movement patterns they can be made to be pretty specific, there are many ways to do them of course. The angles the knees and hips go through arent dissimilar to the extension that happens in a DL, with the addition of the hips travelling forwards and upwards, while the recovery leg follows a running action ie heel to glute and finishes in A position.

Russian curls could be a useful addition for the hamsting work your athletes are doing.

Thanks Tin, interesting thoughts, any alternatives to dumbell drives ?. Describe Russian Curls for me please.

[tamfb]

@PhilG

Thanks Tin, interesting thoughts, any alternatives to dumbell drives ?. Describe Russian Curls for me please.

I think russian curls are glut ham raises on the floor.

[tinsoldier]

Yeah Russian curls are kneeling upright with the feet fixed at them slowly lower the body towrads the floor trying to maintian good body posture with shoulders, hips and knees staying pretty much in a straight line. Eccentric phase lowering is enough to work the hams hard.

As for the DB running arms it depends on what you are doing them for - to help sprint technique? Shoulder strength?

For sprint technique that would be best done as part of training on the track and during drills but not resisted.
For shoudler strength there are a multitude of other exercises - press behind neck is good one for developing anterior delts - looks at Bens delts! Like orange segments!

Dynabands/resistance bands might be one way for some cross over where the athlete can do a resistance exercise while focus on technique using a mirror. This resistance is easily adjusted too.

[PhilG]

@tinsoldier

Yeah Russian curls are kneeling upright with the feet fixed at them slowly lower the body towrads the floor trying to maintian good body posture with shoulders, hips and knees staying pretty much in a straight line. Eccentric phase lowering is enough to work the hams hard.

As for the DB running arms it depends on what you are doing them for - to help sprint technique? Shoulder strength?

For sprint technique that would be best done as part of training on the track and during drills but not resisted.
For shoudler strength there are a multitude of other exercises - press behind neck is good one for developing anterior delts - looks at Bens delts! Like orange segments!

Dynabands/resistance bands might be one way for some cross over where the athlete can do a resistance exercise while focus on technique using a mirror. This resistance is easily adjusted too.

Ah yes I know that one, thank you, people call exercises by different names. Re the dumbell drives, certainly for specific movement strength, no way for technique.

[PhilG]

@PhilG

Ah yes I know that one, thank you, people call exercises by different names. Re the dumbell drives, certainly for specific movement strength, no way for technique.

Good point about the bands, we use them for leg work, why not the arms. Do you use this method and if so how do you go about it.

[PhilG]

Forgot to mention, one of my over 40 guys ran his first ever 60m race the other night in 7.6. His 100m pb is 11.9. He’s quite happy with the programme and feels he will go faster. I think TC was right they just needed to taper.

[tinsoldier]

The bands could be used by attaching them around chest height to a frame and do running arms facing the frame with resistance on the backward movement. Do the resistance the front by facing outwards.

Use different strength bands, and or stand closer in/further out to adjust the resistance.

I feel it should have some resistance all the way with not too much at one end and not too little at the other.

Holding posture is still important tho.

If its strength gains around the shoulder tho, I still think doing the shoulder strength exercises are the way to go. Make the muscles strong, then use that strength in the running.

[PhilG]

@tinsoldier

The bands could be used by attaching them around chest height to a frame and do running arms facing the frame with resistance on the backward movement. Do the resistance the front by facing outwards.

Use different strength bands, and or stand closer in/further out to adjust the resistance.

I feel it should have some resistance all the way with not too much at one end and not too little at the other.

Holding posture is still important tho.

If its strength gains around the shoulder tho, I still think doing the shoulder strength exercises are the way to go. Make the muscles strong, then use that strength in the running.

Thanks tin, good stuff, we do similiar with the band tied to the ankle and the other end to a fixed stand, keeping the body straight we do various exercises to work the glutes etc.