sowjet, slideonice is correct there are considerably less deaths and fewer accidents then previously. Even the accidents, sleds flipping for instance, are relatively safe because of the sled design and helmets the athletes wear.
Sleds leaving the course almost never happen anymore. Unless they are driven by someone whose never been down a run before. Ice burns (oxymoron) may occur when sleds turn.
The worst injury I can remember was when Shimer had a 4-man sled dropped on his foot while carrying his sled to the truck.
A female german learning to drive died this year, sled left the track in Konigssee but this was a freak accident. She had just been 4th in the World Champs as a brakeman 2 weeks before & wanted to drive to see what it was like… a real shame but not an everyday occurance.
In both skeleton & Bob, concussions are a risk even with the helmets but if your support staff know what they are doing, they look after you.
Bumps, bruises & a few small breaks are pretty much it.
Ice burns can be avoided or lessened by wearing burn shirts of Kevlar knit (if you ever need one, let me know I’ll find a link)
a hell of a rush
Now it is almost july…how do leading bobsledders periodize their training?
I mean, probably, after a short break they’ll start in april with weigths and sprints, but,in the sprinting part, I suppose there are the same 2 schools, short to long and long to short, with an obvious less emphasis on SE…any info is greatly appreciated!
You’re right. The two schools of thought do exist even in the sport of bobsledding. I’ve tried both methods with my athletes. A few athletes lived in Atlanta a handful of years ago and trained at a Velocity facility w/ LS. I was very disappointed with their results leading into that season. In short I’m back to essentially the “long to short” camp. However, the farthest distance we run for any given “long” repetition is rarely over 150 meters. Often our “over distance” sprints will be in the 80-100m range (the push is roughly 30m in length).
This is in part (long to short) do to past trial and error and time considerations. As a season approaches more and more emphasis is placed on push performance. There is simply not enough time to train every variable. Since power and maximal acceleration are of the utmost importance at the start (mx velocity as well) we spend the latter part of the summer perfecting technique and trying to gain any measurable amount of time at those first 30m. I do train tempo work throughout the summer - leading all the way into the season. Once sliding begins this is the first variable cut from the program (weather, facilities, travel, etc).
I don’t train overspeed anymore. I think the athletes get plenty of that when we start to incorporate push training into the program. So basically my general plan goes something like this general prep/conditioning (SE) - acceleration dev (technical dev) - mx velocity (July-ish: pushing starts) - mx acceleration - comp. maintenance.
I’m sure there are other models, but that has seemed to work the best thus far. Considering six or so years ago some of our guys (200-215 lb bobsledders) were beginning the summer program running 2 x (400, 300, 200, 150, 100) - WOW & WHY – I think it’s a vast improvement.
I do try to refine and improve the current model every year.
tnx slideonice…it makes sense, since the race distance is about 40 meters to develop all the qualities required and then peaking that distance.
during the season, I suppose the main acc. dev work will be pushing the sled itself…
You appear to have a lot of knowledge regarding both skeleton and bob, I am a skeleton athlete, and am working on improving my push time as well as the driving. We have a push track here which I have been using 1/week it replaces a speed day for me on the track.
Now to my question what type of start would you say is most advantageous the 2 hand or the 1 handed? As well do you have any tips for pushing, other than run fast!! The sport is new and technical coaching when it comes to the start is pretty poor so any help would be awsome.
Jov , if i can jump in here… the one handed start is much more dangerous not from an injury standpoint but for popping out of the groove & in effect, losing the race before turn 1.
Out of the one handed starts out there, the one with your hand over the runner in the groove is “safer” (right side of sled)than the runner that is on flat ice (left), for obvious reasons, a shift in weight will cause the sled to be out of the groove & again, losing your race. This, tho, means you either have to move to the opposite side of the sled (right side) to hold on to the right part of the saddle or be tall enough & have long enough arms to lean over the sled to the proper handle (running on the left but holding the right saddle). Note that 99% of the athletes run on the left side of the sled.
I am sure this is confusing as I have just confused myself!!
A 2 handed push can still be fast as the fastest man & woman on the WC tour do 2 handed & I have seen many 1-handed starters botch races with errors stated above.
In the end, it is up to you to find what is comfortable… gotta be comfortable to run fast… with the level of “risk” you can tolerate.
I tottaly agree with u, the 2 hand start is much safer than the 1 handed, and yes it is up to the athlete and how comfortable they can be both in the amount of risk associated with the 1 handed start but also with the awkward position that skeleton demands. As well your point that there are fast 2 handed pushers out there is very true, basicaly liek any athleet i’m looking for an edge.
I have a decent 2 handed push, and am starting to experiment with the 1 handed i am positioning myself on the right side of the sled the side that the runner is in the grove the load would be the same from either side so i’m not overly concerned with that. My biggest reason for experimenting with it is that it appears to put your body in a better position for running more efficient, more upright, longer stride length should equal faster time. Hopefully I can get some tips on either the 1 or 2 handed start evry little bit helps.
Jov, here are some ideas but you will have to experiment with them as every body is different & finds little things help or hinder.
Foot position on the block can be different ways… some swear by a very staggered stance, 1 foot on the block & 1 on the ice, others have both on the block, more similar to bobsleigh. I think that the 2 feet CAN give you more of an explosion off the blockes (IMO)… think of a sprinter w/ a block setting close together. Try different foot pos. to see what gives you the best explosion.
Off the blocks… some athletes rock the sled back & forth a few times (helps on frosty or sticky ice to “loosen” the groove) & some just take the first step & go. I think if the ice conditions are less than ideal, rocking it can help with the initial inertia (okay, I can’t spell).
Off the block I believe that a simaltanious leg & arm action can bring the first 10m split down considerably. This means having a good grip on the saddle & , for lack of a better term, shoving the sled as you leave the blocks. This will obviously be easier to do in a 2 handed start.
I believe the quicker you are at a full sprint, the faster the 50m time split will be.
The next 2 keys are full sprint… a body position that allows proper stride & foot strike & then the load. You can effect the velocity of the sled by loading in a forward movement & not a downward movement that “flopping” on your sled will cause a jarring of the runners into the ice & lost velocity.
These have to be perfected over time & are individual as far as what is possible, comfortable & efficicient.
I probably didn’t help much here but it is a fine art & one that is not a “one size fits all” kind of topic.
Thanks, that actualy helped a lot belive it or not! the sport is new and growing theer really is not a lot fo coaching involved in the sport especialy the starts, it really is find your own way type of sport right now. Input from other athelets and coaches is awsome cause you can see what you are doign as well as what others are doing and maybe something might transfer.
The start positioning for me (1 handed) is usually one foot on the block then a leg swing with the other one all with a push of the sled forward. It kind of fels like a timing thing and if i can get that timing to become consistant liek 99% then great if not then we work on soemthign else. my 2 hand start both feet on the block explode off while driving the sled forward. I think the biggest thing that I need to work on is body positioning that allwos proper stride length. I agree with you on the load, the softer the better to much flopping downon the sled will decrease speed.
Jov, the leg swing was started by the europeans when they dominated the sport. I am not completely convinced as I think using the block for a full explosion can get more for you but if you can time it right…? See on the time clock what works best.
The body position for the stride length is another “everyone is different” due to physical makeup & porportions. I find you need to hunch your upper back (again, only way I can describe it) to allow room for your legs to move thru. I believe the hip tilt is the same as in the upright sprint position. I have heard some say to tuck in the hips but this will usually cause your back & hips to drop & lessen the room for leg stride.
It’s not so much that skeleton is new as it is a different (read: un-natural)running position… how fast would any world class sprinters be if they had to hold their ankles while doing it?? (isn’t THAT a visual?) With body porportions so varied, it is up to the athlete, even with a coach, to adjust to be as efficient as you can be. again, hope this helps.
Good points & I think you’re pretty much on the money.
A couple of my own comments.
First, WHY the leg swing? What is the biomechanical advantage for the extra movement? I’ve watched a handful of athletes with this technique and personally I think its garbage. This would be the last technique I would teach / suggest to an athlete. Just my professional opinion.
Secondly, 90% of the start comes from athletism. Great athletes generally make better push athletes (bobsled) and on that same point the best “athletes” are generally the better skeleton pushers. So, while most skeleton athletes are looking for a magic bullet at the start by trying to perfect their push technique (don’t get me wrong this IS a necessity), 95% of the skeleton athletes out there need to take the sport seriously and make a full time commitment to training. THAT IS A FACT! Go bust your ass in the squat rack, on the platform, and on the track - THAT will be the best way to improve your start initially. Make yourself a better athlete first.
Some say that the leg swing can give you some more momentum comming off the block, once again who really knows it is going to be different for evryone. I’ll deffinetly try both ways and see how my splits stack up to determine what will work and what will not for me.
about that the start is 90% athletism well I can see your point on that, but you can train to become a great athlete if you are a good one to begin with. Let me clarify this, there are many cross over athletes that come to skeleton for instance myself (football). Football requiers a completly different skill set than skeleton the bobsled football transition is quite common but the transition to skeleton is a little different. It is unnatural to run all hunched over so it takes practice There is no way you willt ake a shitty athleet and turn him/her into a great pusher nevver gonna happen! BUT improvment also requiers practice away from the push track. That is where I tottaly agree with you skeleton athletes need to take it more seriously. Traning is super important and will translate into a better push time belive me i can attest to that. When I said that I was looking for an edge that doesn’t mean I don’t bust my ass in the gym or on the track it means i want to improve and one place that I was looking to improve was my technique in the push. Thast why I was looking for a little guidance in that area from those who have some knowledge of it.
Fair enough. I agree and don’t get me wrong, I’m by no means dimishing the validity of push training. I was just pointing out that more times than not improvements off the ice will have higher success in improving on ice performance.
Momentum off the block… I suppose it will be different for everyone. I would recommend full extension off the block with your power (drive) leg & the subsequent first foot contact directly under your hips to allow a continuation of that acceleration off the block. Most leg swingers seem to “hop” off the block to me and do nothing with their 2nd step.
See attached picture (if this works). How you get there is up to you.
Slideonice & Jov…
you both have valid points. Yes, you HAVE to be an elite athlete (unless you’re a rec. slider just for the fun of it) BUT it is such a tenous position that a great athlete will lose thier speed in a sloppy or inefficient form. Not finding the right position can also make it easy to lose your balance & sliding without your sled.
The leg swing… I’m with slide on this one… I think it’s an old style & I don’t see a benefit over a driving off the block movement (altho it is funny to see the camera men duck when an unexpected foot is in their lens!!.. I’m so easily entertained).
Not sure where you are Jov but skeleton athletes ARE serious about training, at least at the internation/WC level
Have been folliowing some of the posts here with interest and am wondering what peoples thoughts are with regard to the running position in skeleton. Should the arms be straight? The picture posted by slideonice shows the athlete with elbows at right angles, is this just because this is the first step or would this position be maintained? My gut feeling is that straight arms would allow higer hips and a more natural running position although my interest in the sport is very new and would be good to hear from those of you with more experience.
Correct assumption. The athlete pictured IS one of the best starters in the world and yes, after this initial “starting step” he does push with his arm in a more extended position (wrists slightly in front of shoulders). For essentially the exact reasons you mentioned. Oh Yeah, the picture is of Kevin Ellis of the USA. My base model athlete for skele push technique.
Thanks Slideonice,
Couple more questions, once into the running position (arms straight, wrist just in front of shoulders etc) where should the foot contact occur, still directly below the hips or does the contact occur ahead of slightly in front of the hips to maximise stride length? The other thing I’ve been wondering is about back posture, does it stay essentially flat throughout or again does it round slightly to maximise stride. Again my guess is that this may be somewhat dependant on glute and hamstring flexibility, but that the flat back would be preferable and allow greater force contribution from the glutes? Be interested in your thoughts.
I have been following this thread for quite sometime. Just taking in info and learning more from all of you. I would think that your foot contact should be under your hips to allow for spending less time on the ground. I know that applies for sprinting. When I was pushing at the camp this past winter, I preferred having both hands on the sled. I felt quicker and had more speed moving down the track. That’s just my opinion. However I never did try the one handed approach. Since I don’t have access to a push track or something to push for that matter. I would do hurdle pushes where I would concentrate on pushing the hurdle from a low position just like you would do with a skeleton sled. It seemed to help and got me accustumed to running at a low position like that. I’m heading out to Lake Placid again on July 19 for a Bobsled camp. It should be interesting. I’ll stick out like a sore thumb because I’m not 6 foot, 200+lbs. I’m 5’3, 176lbs. We’ll see what happens. If anyone has advice for me I would love to hear it from you. Thanks guys!
Since I have been curious, how would this type of training work for a GPP for Bobsled? I will get much more specific after the GPP. It will ofcourse progress as the weeks mount with volume, intensity and Acc. Dev. length. Let me know what your thoughts are. I’m open to ideas for hte low intensity days. Thanks again.
Monday - Low intensity/general strength work
Tuesday - Medium intensity/Hill work
Wednesday - High intensity/Acc development starts + plyometrics
Thursday - Low intensity/general strength work
Friday - Medium intensity/Sled pulls
Saturday - High intensity/Acc development starts + plyometrics
Sunday - Rest and Recovery