i know this may sound odd, but i think that i’m just not meant to be strong or fast. I think that i was born with low fast twitch fibres, and combine that with the fact that my previous years of soccer training consisted of loads of high intensity speed endurance running, i’m starting to wonder if should abandon trying to get stronger/faster and just take up endurance running like 1500 m or something.
I don’t seem to gain speed or strength despite the routine i use.
Now from the experts on this site, do you think that due to my genetics i should jsut give up with this, or that it’s likely something wrong with my training, diet, etc?
I ran 27.1 <2 years before I ran 22.6, nothing incredible, but it is pretty decent for high school and much better from where I was not long ago. Thing is, my weight was barely any different (I wasn’t obese or severely undergrown before). Just training right the times I had (I had 2 lower leg injuries not related 2 training).
Wasn’t your set-up almost entirely tempo based, with tempo even after sprint training? post what you have been doing and what you have been eating and maybe we can help you out a bit.
You may or may not be genetically predisposed (as someone mentioned, even top sprinters have a range of ST/FT fiber composition) to be the next Asafa Powell, but if you do sufficient speed (>95%) and special endurance (15-30 seconds at >90%), you will begin to hypertrophy the FT fibers that you have (you won’t get more, but the ones you have will get bigger and you will be able to produce more power on the track). If you do lots of slow endurance training and very little true speed, you will hypertrophy your ST fibers, and you will get the opposite result. You CAN gain speed as long as you train properly. It’s a matter of training for what you want, and how much you can gain.
In the weight/strength department, I think you’ll find that many of us who use the weight programs described on this site have no trouble gaining mass in the gym. However, people who come from endurance sports/training (ectymorphs) often do have trouble. If you look at some of the bodybuilding sites, you will find training plans for so-called “hardgainers,” and if you are not a natural power sprinter, you might have to look into some of this. You may also gain more from plyometrics than weight training.
mon-
speed: 3x20y, 3x30y, 5x40y, 1x60y
then some str training: 3x5 bulgarian split squats with dumbells, 3x4 nat. GHR, 3x5 one armed pushups.
tues- Tempo: alternate between sessions A, B and C (see below)
wed- strength training:
squats or deads variation 3x3 done with PR attempts
RDLs or front squats depending on whether i do sqts or deads as my main lift
3x5
nat.GHR or leg curls: 3x5
Bench variation: 3x3-4 done with Pr attempts
pullups: 3x5
core: 3x10 of whatever weighted ab lift is feel like
then either right after or a few hours after:
Tempo at 75% or less:
6x300m with 70 sec rest and 2 x400 with 90 secs rest
Thurs- off
Fri- Same as monday
Sat- Tempo (either A, B or C)
sun- off
Tempo A:
100m rest 30 s, 200m rest 45 s, 300m rest 70s, 400m rest 90s… repeat 3X
B: 2 sets of 8x200m with 45s between reps and 1min between sets
Not saying this is necessarily applicable to you but the following from Kelly Baggett is interesting.
Q: In one of your q&a’s you said that you thought you could take a kenyan distance runner and turn him into an explosive athlete. I’ve been told that being explosive is 90% genetics because distance runners like that have 70% slow twitch fibers and sprinters have 70% or more fast twitch fibers and you can’t change fiber type. I worry because I want to be like that but I’m naturally very thin and good at endurance but also pretty slow and not very explosive. Am I just wasting my time?
A: Alright, this is the kind’ve question I really like. First of all let’s get one thing out of the way. I don’t know for sure that you could make a kenyan distance runner or any other elite distance athlete, such as Lance Armstong, into an explosive athlete because I’ve never had the opportunity to do such an extreme thing. However, based on theoretical observation and not so extreme experiences, I’d be willing to bet you could. No, I’m not talking about turning a guy like this into a world class sprinter but I certainly think with correct training you could take a person like this and reach a level of explosiveness and speed that would put you well into the 90% bracket. I’m talking ~35 inch Vertical jump and ~4.5 fourty yard dash. First let me describe how and then I’ll tell you about some of the advantages this athlete has and then share some of my own personal experiences in this regard.
First of all, many will say the limiting factor is the slow twitch to fast twitch ratio. Now you can’t change a slow twitch fiber into a fast twitch but this is of little consequence and here’s why:
Let’s say this athlete has an 18 inch thigh measurement at a bodyweight of 125 lbs witha 70:30% slow to fast twitch ratio of thigh musculature. I don’t know how big the average distance athlete’s thigh is, but that’s just a guess. Now, let’s say we put this guy on a heavy dose of squats, deadlifts, and food and over a 2 year period brought his bodyweight up to 170 lbs and his thigh measurement up to 25 inches. Now, by doing this, not only did we probably triple his strength, but we also doubled the amount of muscle in his thighs. Remember, that original 18 inch measurement also accounted for the bones, tendons, skin, and connective tissue in his thighs. Now, in bringing his thighs up to 25 inches which of the fiber types grew the slow twitch or fast twitch? That’s a no brainer since everyone knows the fast twitch fibers are the ones that hypertrophy in response to weight training right?
So, what we did was double the size of his thighs but that increase came about purely by an increase in size of the type II fibers which now means his thighs probably contain a proportion of about 70% fast twitch fibers. So no, we didn’t “change” slow to fast we just increased the size of the fast to such an extent that we smoked out the slow - and now we’re looking at an athlete who probably looks and functions more like a sprinter then his old distance running self.
Let me go ahead and state that there are plenty of powerlifters, bodybuilders, and olympic lifters who have done exactly what I’ve just described, - gone from scrawny 125 lbers into behemoths approaching 200 lbs, and even without ANY sport specific training they often become quite explosive and fast over short distances.
Now, let’s say all this time we didn’t just train this guy with an emphasis on bodyweight gain and strength, - we fed his entire power development with a steady diet of short sprints, plyos, and other explosive work in addition to all the rest. Let’s see what he’s capable of after a few years of that!
Next, let’s discuss a few BIG TIME advantages this athlete already had before he ever embarked on this training.
He was already a 1/2 genetic freak with an amazing nervous system already in place. As I’ve said before guys I call “1/2 genetic freaks” are guys that are often naturally wiry, quick, and skinny and struggle in the strength department. I’d say the Kenyan runners I’ve seen give the outward appearance of being in this group. Because they’re so weak, they’re usually not initially very fast or explosive but when you add some horsepower (muscle and strength) to that natural nervous system look out because they’re able to use all of the muscle they do have! Many professional athletes were in this group as adolescents, - skinny and no muscle.
He already had an excellent bone and tendon structure in place with long legs and tendons and excellent movement efficiency with good coordination.
Due to his running background he already has an excellent work ethic in place.
Because of his speedy nervous system he probably also has the metabolism of a horse and because of this he likely won’t have any problems with excessive fat gain that could come about due to a reduction in overall activity and an emphasis on increasing his muscular bodyweight.
Put all those things together in addition to the training and that’s why I say you could pull it off.
Ok. Now the one disadvantage that this athlete may experience is he will find when he reaches what I myself would call his “optimal state” his mile times will go straight to the shitter. (Keep in mind I don’t go anywhere near distance runners with a ten foot pole so what I call “optimal state” is a bit biased!) Building good anaerobic endurance is easy enough and achievable for anyone, yet muscular legs power packed with white type II fiber sure as hell don’t like distance running. Running 7 or 8 minute miles is one thing and can also be achieved by anyone, yet take someone trained for explosive power and throw him out and ask him to run 5 minute miles and the only way it’s gonna happen is if you burn up the muscle in his thighs.
Now, like I said at the beginning I also have some personal insight into all of this. Before I ever started training seriously at 15 years old I was naturally a pretty good endurance runner. Yeah, I was slow as hell and didn’t weigh but a buck 0 five and probably couldn’t jump 18 inches, but I could sit on my butt an entire summer, train for a week and go out and run a 5:30 mile and I once ran a 3 mile cross country race in 18:00 with zero training whatsoever. I’d say those things are a pretty good indication of a high “slow-twitch” ratio as well as a dispropensity towards explosive activities.
Alright let’s fast forward to the present. A few weeks ago just for the heck of it I decided I was gonna see what kind’ve times I could put up in a mile run in comparison to my times as a teenager. Now, keep in mind I regularly embark on a pretty grueling training and conditioning program that I’ve been on consistently for years without missing nary a workout. I don’t normally run distance, but I do all sort’s of other activities like boxing, interval sprints, swimming etc. that give me a good fitness base to draw from. But even with my “cardiovascular” (heart) fitness better then it was when I was 15, and even with a bodyfat level of 8% or less, and even with about 3 workouts per week i’ve been dedicating towards improving my aerobic endurance, - I can’t even get anywhere close to a 6:30 minute mile without my legs screaming out in agony saying “what the hell are you trying to do to me?!” Just goes to show you the ability of the body to adapt. Yeah my anaerobic endurance is excellent and I can run up and down the field or court all game long and run full speed sprints with short recoveries yet that’s different then lactate tolerance which is what a mile run is all about. When you go out to create a mini-monster and have some success you can’t turn him back into a little puppy overnight and I have little interest in turning my legs back into bite sized toothpicks anyway.
So, after a few weeks of that I decided to go ahead and pack it in and say to hell with that mile running venture and left it with a big smile on my face - It did go a long ways towards demonstrating the ability of the body to change and adapt which is what all this is about.
What is the point of the 1 arm push-ups? Why no big compound movements like frnt/bck squats or deadlifts? I’m a lower volume guy myself, but even this is pretty low, almost too low for significant strength development. Only time I have noticed these kind of volumes work is with a larger base present (and even then, the peaking period is relatively short) and with big movements like bck/frnt squats or deadlifts.
wed- strength training:
squats or deads variation 3x3 done with PR attempts
RDLs or front squats depending on whether i do sqts or deads as my main lift
3x5
nat.GHR or leg curls: 3x5
Bench variation: 3x3-4 done with Pr attempts
pullups: 3x5
core: 3x10 of whatever weighted ab lift is feel like
then either right after or a few hours after:
Tempo at 75% or less:
6x300m with 70 sec rest and 2 x400 with 90 secs rest
Why not do tempo on Thurs and put sprints here? I wouldn’t personally go for so many PRs (unless you are still so early in development you are continously hitting PRs still) and get more vol again because you’re a small guy at under 150lbs. Even getting up to 160lbs would be an improvement.
Fri- Same as monday
What is your warm-up like for these speed sessions?
Tempo A:
100m rest 30 s, 200m rest 45 s, 300m rest 70s, 400m rest 90s… repeat 3X
B: 2 sets of 8x200m with 45s between reps and 1min between sets
C: 200m rest 45 secs, 300m rest 70 secs… repeat 6 times[/quote] You may want to get more rest on these runs.
My diet is fine IMO:
Breakfast: oats or oat bran with almonds and soy milk
PW meal/which is my dinner:
Pasta, salad, yogurt and meat (depending on whether its a “hi” day or not
later meal: 2 eggs, Pb/jam sandwiches, raw veggies and almonds and fruit.
generally i get between 70 and 100 g of protein (i weigh only 142) and at least 200 g of carbs.
[/quote] Where are you getting 100g of protein? <30g for breakfast probably, not sure the meat, but it can’t be much if it is under 10oz, only 2 eggs, etc. At least try to get your bw worth of protein on your training days, I mean, even that isn’t too much. There really isn’t much food there and no pre-workout nutrition at all listed. None of these are good signs.
Oh ya, drop the soy, eat meat with your dinner, and eat some lunch (you didn’t list any there). Leave the soy for your sister or mother. There are better options than milk generally, but if you are going to drink it, don’t drink soy.
“What is the point of the 1 arm push-ups? Why no big compound movements like frnt/bck squats or deadlifts? I’m a lower volume guy myself, but even this is pretty low, almost too low for significant strength development. Only time I have noticed these kind of volumes work is with a larger base present (and even then, the peaking period is relatively short) and with big movements like bck/frnt squats or deadlifts.”
so you think i should do more intese movements like squats/deads on sprint days?? i thought that the lower intesity.volume on these days would be nessesary… that’s why i have the one armed pushups, GHR etc…
“Why not do tempo on Thurs and put sprints here? I wouldn’t personally go for so many PRs (unless you are still so early in development you are continously hitting PRs still) and get more vol again because you’re a small guy at under 150lbs. Even getting up to 160lbs would be an improvement.”
so you don’t think i should devote a whole day to strnegth training, since i’m pretty weak and small right now? Do you think it would be ok if on my main lifts (squat/deads and bench, i do a one set PR for 3 reps and then the rest of my sets are more volume oriented. Or Are you trying to suggest that my whole trainig approach should generally be more volume oriented, and try pr’s on alternate weeks or something?
“What is your warm-up like for these speed sessions?”
400m light jog, but-kicks 3x20, high knees 3x20, BW stiff leg deads 3x10, lunges 3x8, 20m fast run, 30 m fast run, 40 m fast run.
" You may want to get more rest on these runs. "
how much more approx? b/c i am able to complete them fairly easily… i only start to get appreciably fatigued near the end but am still able to finsih at th original time.
"Where are you getting 100g of protein? <30g for breakfast probably, not sure the meat, but it can’t be much if it is under 10oz, only 2 eggs, etc. At least try to get your bw worth of protein on your training days, I mean, even that isn’t too much. There really isn’t much food there and no pre-workout nutrition at all listed. None of these are good signs. "
well my breakfast is my Preworkout meal. I guess i could up the protein… but i’m reluctant since there is so much debate about it…
the debate thing is from sedentary people spousing sedentary lifestyles. the big strong bodybuilders, powerlifters, strongman all eat upwards of 300grams of protein per day.
skinny personal trainers, physios and doctors say you only need 30grams protein per day.
Who would you rather listen too? A peice of paper that says low protein, or a 20+ inch bicep that says 200-300 grams per day?
Since sprinting is pure speed, max strength and power, i know which protein direction i would rather follow…
i agree with the assertion that is possible. but his reasoining is all off and in training it will produce initially and then they will produce none. its not as simple as stating that you do this for a couple years and you will get this. i have a lot of problems with his arguments but the one glaring one is that a distance runner would have a nervous system that is already primed for explosive ability. this is sooooo far off base that i have to question the validity of his work.
Yes, that is what CFTS and many many other sport training programs do and have success with. You don’t need those movements. 1 arm push-ups aren’t going to do you anymore than getting you better at 1 arm push-ups. Squat/deadlift and press of some time, at the very least. You can add in more aux. exercises after this because you need more muscle and probably more work capacity. What kind of numbers are you putting up?
so you don’t think i should devote a whole day to strnegth training, since i’m pretty weak and small right now? Do you think it would be ok if on my main lifts (squat/deads and bench, i do a one set PR for 3 reps and then the rest of my sets are more volume oriented. Or Are you trying to suggest that my whole trainig approach should generally be more volume oriented, and try pr’s on alternate weeks or something?
You aren’t doing much lifting period. This session could easily follow a sprint workout. 2x a week sprinting and lifting weights is not difficult to recover from, even for a guy with lower work capacity (trust me, I was a low vol guy and could tolerate this easy). I wouldn’t worry about hitting huge weights at 3 reps when you need to gain some weight. Get more muscle AND strength. 4x5 isn’t huge volume, but it would help a lot.
400m light jog, but-kicks 3x20, high knees 3x20, BW stiff leg deads 3x10, lunges 3x8, 20m fast run, 30 m fast run, 40 m fast run.
You need more than this. 30mins of warm-up is almost a minimum. More general activity and at least some dynamic stretching (if you won’t do any static) before you get going.
how much more approx? b/c i am able to complete them fairly easily… i only start to get appreciably fatigued near the end but am still able to finsih at th original time.
idk anybody that can do 2x8x200m at 75% with that short of recovery and call it low intensity that is not incredibly elite in an event. Most guys are taking at least 2mins rest or they are considering it an SE session.
well my breakfast is my Preworkout meal. I guess i could up the protein… but i’m reluctant since there is so much debate about it…
What debate? Not from any good coaches or ones that I would hold in high esteem. Get more protein and not from soy. More meat and more food in general. If anything, you could use less carbs and more protein. You aren’t getting 100g a day unless those are huge portions in your diet, which I am guessing they are if you’re under 150.
End points:
More volume in lifting. More food(NOT SOY THAT SHT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL). More protein.
i think athletes do eat to much protein at the expense of other nutrients. its fine to eat as much proteing as you want but in what ratio is this consumption of protein considered with consuption of other nutrients. if the rest of your diet isnt in like it really doesnt matter how much protein you consume.
not to be a pain but its fair to point out that hicam el-g could probably break 22 out of blocks in a 200 and 46 in 4x4 split. i’d even put money down that wilson kipketer could break 11 in a FAT 100.
so these guys already are FAST. so bagget wouldn’t really be doing that much. just working on there starting strength.
the 5k world record has average lap splits of 62.5. anyway you slice it. 800-marathon elite distance runners are pretty quick in flat sprints.
I was waiting for someone to point that out People often don’t realise how fast the top long distance runners are. The Marathon (26 mi, 385 y) WR is 2.04.55 so that is under 5 minute mile pace all race :eek:
thanks for all the input davan, i really appreciate it…
I’m still confused if for the lifting you think i should go for some PR attempts on my main lifts… you said 4x5, so maybe i do a reverse pyramid or something where i warm up do my pr set, and the last 3 sets are 1-2 reps shy of failure? or should they all be 1-2 shy of a PR attempt?
About my numbers… squat: haven’t maxed b4 but can do 205 2x. Deads- haven’t maxed, but repping 225. bench- i rep 155. very sad i know.
I was wondering what you think about periodizing strength and speed like kelly B suggests:
for example for 3 weeks you work on increasing str while maintaining speed, and then the next 3wks you really focus on speed while maintaining str?
ahh this is so annoyingly confusing!! ppl say you can;t train vo2 max and lactic tolerance, otherwise you’ll be slow, but these guys obviously revolve there training around just that. What gives are they just genetic freaks?
You are over thinking this. Warm-up. Pick a weight you think you can do for 4x5 (or whatever setsxreps) and lift. If you have to decrease during the workout, fine. The volume isn’t ridiculously high, you’re lifting 2x a week, and you aren’t lifting WR amounts so there is no reason to get fancy.
Kelley B’s idea isn’t anything new. CF states it in virtually every book and it is the basis of many strength and speed programs. You could back off every 4th week or 5th week or something like that. Again, you don’t have to worry about it as much since you are probably making improvements every week. You could probably back off, instead for a whole week, 1 workout.
Your numbers aren’t sad, but they are novice level. Just work on getting better and hitting the weights hard. You want to get stronger and bigger, so lift more than once a week. Simple as that. Big movements (squats and presses) and lots of protein and you are solid. Drop the damn soy, did I say that yet?
I hope this doesn’t confuse things even more but I saw a presentation earlier this year by Dr Peter Snell in which I’m sure he claimed that long (over 2 hours) runs actually contributed to conversion of ST to FT fibres. If anyone is interested PM as I’m sure I can get a copy of the presentation.
Omyss, you forget they need that speed to be able to run as fast as they do for their distance races. Most of them would be fast no matter what. Worry about what will make you best and fastest (if that is your goal). It isn’t doing tons of lactic and vo2 work most likely.
People often don’t realise how fast the top long distance runners are. The Marathon (26 mi, 385 y) WR is 2.04.55 so that is under 5 minute mile pace all race :eek: