When considering the techniques used in warm-up it is also important to keep in mind the specifics of the primary activity and the limiting factors that the warm-up has to overcome to allow optimal performance.
I believe much of the research on static stretching and subsequent power development relates to rather simple force production activities. This is due to the practical constraints of the research setting.
In the case of something like weight training, the reduction in force capability from prior static stretching can undoubtedly have a negative impact. However, when it comes to sprinting, the primary limiting factor is often muscle relaxation, not the production of maximum tension. If an athlete is particularly tight, the benefit from lowering the muscle tone and reducing that tension with static stretching and/or mild PNF will probably far outweigh any minor reduction in maximum muscle tension. Excessive muscle tone will probably not hamper you in the weight room, but it will certainly hinder you on the track.
As has been hinted at by others in this thread, you also have to consider other warm-up activities and compare this to the stretching/warm-up procedure used in the studies. Ian King addresses many of these points in his stretching seminars and has been a staunch advocate of static stretching in the warm-up for many years. His success with rugby players speaks for itself.
It is worth thinking about ideals but first you must be in one piece! In the real world, you need to do whatever it takes to be ready for the event/training. In training, if you need to do alot of additional stretching, you need to go sub-max anyway. In a meet, you need to be healthy, and, if you need to go to extraordinary lengths in the warm-up, you need to reconsider the risk/benefit of the competition itself.
Something that I haven’t seen mentioned in any of this discussion with regards to PNF is the fact that it is a complete movement system and not just a contract/relax/ROM method.
As many on this board own a copy of “Supertraining”, they would do well to revisit the section on PNF as a training system. Years ago at one of Dr. Siff’s strength camps he went into great detail discussing the original methods developed by Herman Kabat and showed us aspiring strength coaches how we could integrate many aspects of PNF into our training of athletes. One key point I recall was the emphasis on spiral and diagonal patterns. He showed us how we could change a rather simple movement like a cable crossover into a simple yet thorough warm up for much of the upper body musculature by doing the following:
Start the movement by holding two cable-cross handles with the hands held high and palms facing up. Then upon rotating them downwards across one another one should simultaneously flex the torso forwards at the waist and continue bending until the torso and head were facing the lower limbs. At this point the hands and forearms were crossed and the palms were facing one another. The movement was then reversed and continued for a specified number of reps. Hope that example makes sense.
The following is a quote from “Supertraining”:
“PNF is invariably regarded by conditioning coaches as a special type of sophisticated stretching, alongside static, ballistic and passive stretching. PNF is far more than just another stretching technique; it is actually an entire system of therapy comprising a broad spectrum of different techniques and procedures for rehabilitating patients suffering from various musculoskeletal injuries or disabilities. Stretching constitutes but one of many aspects of the full repertoire of PNF methods, yet even those enlightened coaches who use PNF extol only its virtues as a stretching system.”
Something that I haven’t seen mentioned in any of this discussion with regards to PNF is the fact that it is a complete movement system and not just a contract/relax/ROM method.-Formula
Nice post, straying from the subject of warm ups dynamic exercise (weights) combined with PNF develop exceptional strength. There are indications that it causes longitudinal growth.
I found developing strength through isometrics alone though stagnated after about 12 sessions (4 weeks.) As did my flexibility.
I believe it came out in the late 80’s and it was put out by the NSCA. Exercises and other ideas are presented. Not sure if it is still available for sale.
1- Someone find that ART or similar work low muscle tone, what’s your experience?
2- Why you start stetching from the upper body?
I’ve spoken with some myofascial therapist and they start from the neck for a better shoulder release.
Then, time is an important keypoint, do You think that a maximal 6 stretch seconds is an optimal time before a workout?
i live in a realtively cheap distance from power, can i come too?
seriously im not joking, ill bee quiet and just watch the great people work!
actually, something a bit irelevant, i want to watch and learn, but how can i aproatch that people that know? I mean, these boards are a wealth of info, but frankly nothing beats actually watching.
i just go where they work, and speak up? would that suffice?
I had a guy from the boards stop in and talk with me for awhile a couple of weeks back. When someone has time available: show up, be as irritating as possible, and learn what you can.
Slogan - what do YOU mean by PNF?
PNF is a system but what approach exactly are you using?
SeanJos - I disagree
Stretching and Flexibility approaches are simply tools to be used.
Their use depends on the requirements of that moment.
I have even used static stretches in some cases for extended periods on certain muscles pre-event - again it depends on the instance and athlete.
The other thing to bear in mind too is that to rely n one method of training is folish too.
I combine some methods to preapre the athlete for the task or treatment rather than just beat the horse to death with one whip.
As for using PNF only after - nonsense.
Many professional and olympic athletes use and used PNF AND static stretching pre-event and even during.
Like I said - they are all tools, but used when needed.
I have also used static stretching to great effective during (i.e. between sets) strength workouts.
One other point that links this to the HIT thread … PNF and HIT are examples of methods.
But within that there are many variables, so throwing out a method doesn’t makes sense.
So on that point the type of PNF stretching is key to the use of PNF.
I must say that HIT is a very useful method to increase hypertrophy and muscle size fast - particlaurly in overtrained athletes.
I also am very dissapointed with the general attitude to HIT.
I think Metzner had some very interesting concepts, that were ignored and castigated along with Mike and eventually thrown out shortly before his death.
But the relevance is only for hypertrophy and for generally aesthetic purposes and bodybuilding.
Charlie - I have used some static PNF pre-workout on hip flexors and I have found it effective - do you see no use use for static PNF pre-wo at all?
[I suspect the calibre of athlete is a factor here and we’re (sorry - I’m) not really comparing apples and oranges!!]
Flash -
I agree with you points on flexibility and the focus of pre-activity preparartion.
While I find PNF useful I particularly like AIS for alot of speed-type activities specifically for teaching relaxation among semi-pro’s or ametaurs.
It is something they can do quite easily themselves, whereas PNF is very often more effective done with help IMO.
By the way - what exactly is Ian Kings success in rugby?
Jamorik -
With many new semi-pro’s I end up starting with the shoulders - even if the issue is a lwr body one.
I find that by doing this the upper body relaxes better and as a result the organism as a whole as almost every one has neglected Upper Body tension/restrriction.
I have even used static stretches in some cases for extended periods on certain muscles pre-event - again it depends on the instance and athlete.-no23
If these athletes are involved in a sport that requires them to display their maximum static flexibility e.g gymnastics then yes, but if they are speed-strength athletes could you tell us of these instances ?
What is it you’re trying to do in your warm up? Is it not to increase awareness, coordination, muscle contractibility and efficiency of the CV and respiratory systems? Static stretching (relaxed or isometric) has a negative effect on all of these.
Good point, but you refer to stretching work or therapy work?
There is a little difference.
In therapy you can work with basic emotional release (more upper body tensions have an emotional issue i.e. neck/shoulder) and this help a lot (emotional release isn’t only a psycologic work, but a system for discharge nervous excess energies).
With stretching, some people have better result when start with the back, other speak about pelvis.
I work start from the feet, but probably pelvis is a good/better start point.
yes, if you read enough, static stretchin indicates that you loose a lot of strength if done before a session. studys prove that stretching before does nothing to prevent you from injury.
that is what i thought or was told to think before today. i am glad you brought it up.
its been a while since i have looked up stretching. Maybe 5 yrs or so??
I have never thought much about it after seeing studys like the ones you have seen.
I guess i should have asked here yrs ago, i feel like a fool for not having asked.
If somebody like charlie or No2 mention HOW to stretch and what methods they incorporate into training and why and what physical status you are currently in, i will listen.
My thoughts on stretching now have expanded. I have learned from the best. Why i listened to reports that were not from the best are beyond me, i normally only listen to what the best have to say??? I have learned. Thanks to all.
ok, let me know!