WSTRAINER,
If you remember it, could you provide us with a description, as best you can, of the L4-L5 ELDOA? My article contains the L5-SI ELDOA, but I don’t know L4-L5, and those are the two lumbar vertebrae that tend to take the most punishment during heavy lifting.
I hope you enjoy the seminar and please don’t be selfish with the information. 
I have been studying fascial work for a while. I found Anatomy Trains , The Fascial Web, and books by Chaitow to be very helpfull. I work with a guy who has been working with Guy for the last 5-6 years so Im lucky to engage in converstations with him on this and many other topics that Guy may touch upon.
The ELDOA course was crazy. I have helped dozens of people with their back pain with the ELDOAS. Now time to incorparate the myofascial stretches.
I know alot of our clients want us to give them print outs of the pictures but we were told not to do that. I dont think Guy likes his stuff given out, especially to people that have not taken his courses and may not have a complete understanding of how to apply these stretches. Now if someone is working with Guy as a student it may be different. Ill ask and see how he feels about having a write done on his methods.
I have to go through my notes but I remember we had great conversations on fiber conversions and advanced program design protocols ( weightlifting).
He is truly one of the smartest people I have met.
This reminds me of the old Gung Fu teachers in San Francisco that hated Bruce Lee for teaching non-Chinese students.
I really think there should at least be some kind of crib sheet for patients who are treated with these methods since there is so much to remember for each stretch. One of the great advantages of these techniques is that they are all self-applied, allowing the patient to control the treatment. It kind of defeats this purpose if they can’t remember all the details. And as you know, tiny details are crucial with these stretches. That’s why when I learned them from Rucsandra I made it a point to write up detailed descriptions of them immediately afterward.
Sorry everyone, but I pulled my posts containing the article link. Some issues have come up regarding the article, not least of which its technical accuracy. Also, I don’t want to burn any bridges before they’ve even been built.
The purpose of the article was to stir up interest in Guy Voyer’s techniques, since they are so effective and yet there is so little awareness of them. I was not trying to create a training manual. I originally only intended to include a couple examples and describe the underlying theory. But I don’t know enough about the theory, and the only way I could get across the flavor of the techniques was to use several examples to help people realize that it isn’t just another form of yoga.
So for those who have downloaded the article, enjoy playing with the material but realize that it’s not an authoritative instructional source, like I stated in the article.
If there’s enough interest, maybe we can organize a special CF.com seminar with Guy Voyer in Toronto specifically aimed at the needs of athletes. I know Poliquin has set up several seminars with Voyer, so it should be fairly feasible.
I tried the above stretching sequence last night and found it much more effective than starting with the hips and then moving to the legs.
Thank you for your feedback.
Generally “down” help to loseen “up”, but this is the theory.
I’m working with more specific sequence for selfwork, and this information is great.
(Did you have fascial restriction in your hips?).
Not really. When Lou worked on me last year, most of the restrictions were in my legs.
When I tried the ground-up sequence last night I noticed that each subsequent muscle group was much looser than it normally is when I stretch it, especially the hips.
The stretching article has gotten me into some hot water with Guy Voyer. If you have already downloaded it, please do not copy it or forward it to anyone else as a personal favor to me.
If you are interested in obtaining qualified instruction in Dr. Voyer’s myofascial stretching I suggest contacting the follow people:
http://www.totalbalance.ca/wellness-clinic.html
http://www.core-essentials.com/services_manual.html
http://www.pilates-center.com/mfs.htm
http://www.atpservices.ca/en/148/23/0/
http://www.halfmoon-resort.com/resort/popup_paulGagne.htm
http://www.jcoach.com/Services/Myofacial-Stretching.html
When I first contacted Ricsandra Mitrea, I promised her I would not use the information to train clients or hold myself out as a qualified instructor, which I have not done. But apparently, Dr. Voyer likes to maintain very tight control over the dissemination of any information related to his techniques, which I did not know. So I never ran the article past him for his approval. So out of respect to Dr. Voyer please keep the information “in house” here where it was intended.
No problem
Sorry if I sound negative here but just because someone has taken a course with Guy doesnt mean that that person is 100% qualified to teach his methods. In my recent myo-fascial seminar this past weekend, their was 22 people. Out of that I would maybe hire 4 to work in my clinic and teach these methods. Even people who have worked with Guy for the last 10 years dont have it 100% exact. Practice Practice Practice, but Perfecct Practice. Ive seen people say so and so taught me this ELDOA or my-fascial stretch, they have all done it incorrectly. I took the ELDOA 2 years ago and I still work with others to perfect my technique before I prescribe it. Theres alot to know with these stretches, not to mention contraindications and progressional patterns.
I had the Myo-Fascial manual 2 years ago, and know that I have actually done the course ( and signed up for the next one) I can see that without actual instructions by Guy himself, the manual is of no use.
WSTRAINER
Another resource I would suggest checking out is Ann Frederick.
She works with a ton of pro athletes, and her methods are probably more practical for most athletic applications and easier to apply than Guy’s, which are more clinically oriented (although I still highly encourage people to seek out qualified instruction in his methods if you have the oppportunity).
Ann is currently writing a book that will be published by Human Kinetics, which is scheduled for release at the beginning of the year.
SWIS used to sell a video of the presentation she and her husband Chris gave several years ago. Hopefully that video will be available again when SWIS reopens its store. I have a copy and I have to say you really need to see her in action to appreciate her skill. It’s very different from studying static photos. I bought a stretching program from her a couple years ago, but I wasn’t too thrilled with it. But after watching her on video, I was able to go back to the program and get much more out of it.
Incidentally, Dr. Voyer also gave several presentations for SWIS which were also available on video at one time, and hopefully these will be made available again. According to the description that was on SWIS’s web site, one of the presentations included a demonstration of a psoas stretch and the L4-L5 ELDOA. I tried to get copies when they were originally available, but SWIS’s ordering system didn’t work very well. I hope they improve it when the store reopens.
I remember the day Anne was giving that lecture at SWIS because Mel Siff and I decided to walk out and have out own discussion on stretching, etc in the hallway. Nothing new or earth shattering at her lecture.
Im always amazed at how big of an issue people make out of stretching. Is it really that hard to be come flexible? I think not.
With everything you will have various opinions: dont stretch before the game, stretch before the game, static VS dynamic, ballistic-good / bad, PNF. As with everything in training, all these methods will have a time and place in a periodized plan.
If she does in fact have a video from SWIS it wouldnt hurt at $20 a pop, but since most of her stuff is stolen from Aaron Mattes it would probably be better to buy his Theory lecture at SWIS and some of his other products.
Also, you will have to study books by many authors to come up with your own way of doing things as well as trial and error.
Books/videos by Tsatsouline on stretching will also be helpfull.
WSTRAINER
Actually, the methods Ann demonstrated on the video are more PNF oriented. Although her approach to “static” stretching is similar to Mattes in that there is a constant moving into and out of the end range position. Her main innovation to the PNF is the use of traction during the stretching and always coming out of a stretch through a different path than you went into it. She also used special straps to stabilize the person on the table, allowing him to completely relax. There’s a great picture on Joe DeFranco’s web site showing him using such straps. http://www.defrancostraining.com/pics/pics_college-pro.htm
I have the Mattes presentation from SWIS as well. It’s definitely worth checking out if it becomes available again. Although I’ve never been thrilled with his choice of stretches (I’ve had his books for a couple years). The short hold method I like, especially for warm-up, but some of the actually stretch positions don’t seem to hit the targe muscles as well as I would like.
I actually prefer the more traditional PNF spiral/diagonal stretches, but with the AIS short holds rather than the isometric contractions, which Mattes believes are often impractical for solo stretching, which I agree with.
I’ve never read any of Pavel’s books but they consistently get good reviews. Is there anything unique about his approach?
Flash,
It’s really hard for me to say right now ( because the book is not in front of my) why Pavels books are better than most. I do remember that he has written about using various protocols to relax muscles to be able to stretch them, and like Kurz, talks about rewiring your nervous system for enhanced flexibilty.I enjoyed both his books ( Super Joints and Relax into Stretch) as well as his videos.Again, nothing earth shattering, but one of the better books out their.
I liked Thomas Kurz book ( forget name but in its 4th printing). Also has a great video/dvd campanion.
Supertraining has a great chapter on stretching.
AIS was a great reference giude you can easily carry ( the book).
Jumpstretch has a great stretching video.
Muscle Energy Techniques by Chaitow is great if your into rehab or working with very tight people.
Autostretch by a German author was a great book. Dont think its available anymore though.
There was a stretching book by Superfoot Bill Wallace. Old but good.
PNF in practice was a great book. Mel Siff was huge on PNF. I think if you read between the lines you can get alot of good things to add to your strength and flexibilty programs.
I also have everything from Myers. I especially enjoyed the videos.
Guy Voyers videos from SWIS (2-3 videos) would give you a great intro to how deep this guy can get.
I have a huge library, Ill see if theres anything good that may be of interest to you.
WSTRAINER
Actually, I just remembered something about Arron Mattes’ SWIS presentation that stood out. I don’t know if this is still his policy but he stated he will let people study with him at his clinic for free. I don’t know of anyone else in this field (or any field for that matter) that is willing to share his expertise so openly.
I’ve never read Kurz’s book but I’ve heard so many good things about it I’ll definitely get a copy.
The information on stretching in Supertraining is terrific. You’re right, it’s more of a read between the lines situation, but Siff does a great job of teaching the logic behind stretching, and the stretching grid in the book is fabulous. You can create almost any stretch you want from it. This aspect of Supertraining tends to get overlooked in comparison to its strength training content. You can tell from Siff’s work that he was a HUGE fan of PNF. There’s a great article of his online comparing PNF to Pilates.
I have one of Louie Simmons’ videos that has a short presentation by Dick Hartsell at the end demonstrating the use of jumpstretch bands for flexibility. It’s one of the most unique approaches I’ve seen and was quite an unexpected bonus on that video.
The MET book is great, but it’s definitely more therapy related. You can’t really do a lot of it on your own.
Autostretching is available through OPTP. I’ve linked to it several time in the forum. It’s one of my favorite books. http://www.optp.com/shop.cfm?groupid=Stretching&catid=Resources
One of the things I like about Autostretching is the way it teaches how to isolate different vertebrae for stretching, somewhat reminiscent of ELDOA. But even the stretches in Autostretching can be pretty tricky to perform correctly. There are very detailed instructions that give very precise cues as well as trouble shooting pointers that cover common mistakes in executing the stretches. It’s definitely worth the money. When I first got it, I was blown away by its detail, which was much greater than I was expecting.
I’ve come across this book on Amazon, but I already have Robert McAtee’s and Dorothy Voss’ books. Does PNF in Practice cover anything new from a self stretching point of view? I particularly appreciated the expanded sections on self stretching in the 2nd ed. of Facilitated Stretching.
Just a quick update regarding the article and the controversy with Guy Voyer. I heard from Rucsandra Mitrea (the instructor who taught me the stretches) and it turns out Guy actually liked the article for the most part and thought it was well written. Apparently he likes the idea of letting athletes and coaches know a little more about his methods so that they will seek out qualified instruction through his school (which was my intention in writing the article).
However, he wanted to have some input on its content to clarify and correct some points. So I will be talking with him soon regarding this and hopefully will have an updated and more authoritative article ready for posting that will have his blessing.
As I have posted many times before, and as WSTRAINER has ellaborated upon, you really can’t learn these stretches from words and pictures. The idea is to get people interested in Guy’s approach and provide several examples for them to develop some familiarity with his techniques and how they differ from other stretching methods as well as get an appreciation of their complexity.