Training question that ive always wondered*
Distance coach says, repeats at mile pace (ie 400m repeats at mile pace) with full recoveries (1/2-3= w/r) is “speed” work for distance runner (anaerobic power, economy and speed) cant do this everyday, hard to recover from
Sprint coach says recovery/aerobic cap work is ext tempo (ie 75% and under of best at that distance, short rest) can do this every day easy to recover from
Ill use my current self as an example: tests ~ 10weeks ago
7min-1 mile (mile pace)
400m- 85 sec
So why is it if i do 400m repeats @ mile pace (1:45/400m) with work/rest @ 1/2-3 this is hard to recover from and shouldnt do much volume of (relatively -not 4000m of) or frequency per week says distance coach
But
Sprint coach says
Ext tempo 8x400m @ 1:53 (75%) w/ short rest say 1-2min rec, is recovery work and can do frequently. To a distance coach this would be borderline mile pace"speed"/vo2max work and would be a hard workout?*
Ive always been greatly confused by this. Even if ext tempo was dropped to 65% (~2:11/400m) this would still be threshold work to a distance coach and a hard workout as well, definitely not to be done everyday. The distance session even has 2-3times more recovery granted it is done faster. One calls it recovery/aerobic work the other calls it a speed session. I dont get it…
???
Try running 8x400 with 2 mins recovery at a pace of somewhere between 1.45 and 1.53 and see if its is hard or something you could do regularly.
This sounds a bit trite - but the ease at which an athlete completes a given training effort is dependant on their personal make up. Slow twitch versus fast twitch muscle fibres, physical build, mentatlity etc. Ability to run over/under distance and under/over speed are variable per type of runner.
There are differences in the intensities and volumes between sprint and long distance tempo workouts, coaches, even when they are talking about the same element (extensive tempo) talking about different things.
75% of max speed during tempo workout for sprinter is further away from actuall speed he/she will be generating during event, comparing to 75% of max speed for long distance runner which is way closer to the speed they will be going during their 5k run.
Looking from this point of view for one coach extensive tempo is a recovery workout, when for the other might be actuall specific event workout.
For argument sake using my above times for the 1M and 400m:
What if i was training for a long distance say 5k and 400m race concurrently. With my times, say i wanted to do a 1M session on monday (400m repeats @ 1:45 w/ 4min rec, then Tuesday use ext tempo as rec/aerobic cap work say (10 x 400m @ 1:53 (75%) w/ 2min rec) i feel tuesday session wouldnt be recovery work even if it was dropped to 65% (2:11/400m). But it should be according to sprint methods…?
Thats my point why is one classified as being low intensity/recovery work and the other a stress/“hard” workout… i feel it shouldnt matter whether you are a “distance runner” or “sprinter” or training for both. The body can not tell the difference. Your body adapts to the stress imposed upon it depending on whether the stress targets aerobic cap or anaerobic power or any other system… why are these works outs so damn similar, while one comes from sprinting world the other distance world, yet each “world” says it targets a completley diffrent system, when in fact they shouldn’t since they are so similar…
Why in the sprinting world do they say you can do this everyday but distance says no no no this is a stress workout and recommend to do this 1x/week with easy days on both sides, but sprinter saying this is easy work…
The way i see it all of these recommendations (ie 75% and under of best= aerobic/recovery work and 1M pace repeats = anaerobic power/speed/economy…ect…ect) are to target diffrent systems doesnt matter whether your a sprinter, or distance man. So why is it hese 2 workouts are so similar yet each sport is saying it stresses a diffrent system? Hell the distance session is done at nearly the same pace with even more recovery compared to sprint ext tempo, yet distance says this is anaerobic power while sprint says easy/rec/aerobic cap work…?
I thought that I have partially explained it in the previous posts.
How’s that 75% relates to the event?
OK from other angle, sprinter can live without tempo?
can 5k runner do it?
Totally different purpose of the workout even thou they are targeting the same system.
Doing every workout you have to take into the account not only the benefits of it but also impact of the workout on the systems: cardiovascular, respiratory, muscular, endocrine, muscular and skeletal.
The 75% which most of the time you have came across on this forum relates to 75% of max speed/ best time of 100m not 400m time.
I think for what you are trying to accomplish/do you can use hart rate monitor.
I think your numbers are off. For a miler, their mile speed will be about 80% of their 400m speed. They would probably do repeat 400s at 80% of PB with short breaks (1-2min). Tempo should be 75% of PB at the most, usually more like 65-70%. Rest periods for 400m tempo repeats at this pace would be at least 3min, probably more. 1.5-2min would be the rest period for 200m tempo repeats.
A 4min miler with a 400m PB of 48s may thus run a speed workout of 8x400m in 60s with 1-2min rest. A 400m runner with a 48s PB, on the other hand, may run 8x400m in 65-70s with 3-4min rest as a tempo session.
As mentioned, try the workout and decide for yourself whether it’s extensive tempo (no lactic acid, easy to recover from) or intensive tempo/speed work (lots of lactic, hard to recover from).
So 400 reps for ext tempo would be based off of % of best 100m not % of best 400m?? What if you were using ext tempo say for soccer and wanted high volume of ext tempo b/c of this sport. You would still use a % of 100m pb instead of 400m pb for 400m ext tempo reps??
As for heart rate monitor you suggest basing intensities off max hr. Do you have experience with heart rate or just a suggestion on your part?
They match up. 400m PB 85s, 1M PB 7.00 pretty much spot on 80% of 400m.
Your post has cleared things up. It was a rest period issue with ext tempo (way too short for 400s) this makes sense. Thank you much.
No problem. What I meant by “your numbers are off” was that a proper extensive tempo workout would have slower speeds and/or longer rest periods than the intensive tempo/speed workout.
Extensive tempo 400m repeats would be based off your 400m PB, and you would aim for about 65-70% of your 400m PB (or SB).
Ah, i see. What would a typical interval format be for intensive tempo. 80-90% of pb speed with Work:rest = 1:3-5 (depending on length length of rep, intesity, volume,fitness, targeted system <fast or slow glycolysis>, ect.ect)
“Speed work” for most distance runners is lower quality than a tempo session for sprinters. But few sprinters have the ability to do 10x400 at tempo pace.
I recall when I first began coaching middle distance runners, and gave them a tempo session and it nearly crippled them with soreness for a week. Then it hit me they rarely had run at anything faster than mile paces and certainly nothing full out.
Given the needs of running a 1500m, I think one x weekly 10-12x400m session might be enough with the other few days other types of tempo runs to help with the shorter sprint events.
What do you think, what recovery do you need after jogging?
To me your 65% it is not an extensive tempo, your 7min/1M is an extensive tempo (just about)
The 65% relates to the max effort (therfore 100m is used as a perfect indicator of it, not 400 or 1M)
When you start calculating the way you are doing now it’s like calculation of what’s my extensive tempo 65% for a 5h marathon. That’s takes you to 1.5m/sec, what’s the point?
Wouldnt it be all relative to your race distance and fitness? Why wouldnt 50m be the “perfect indicator”? To some a 10min/Mile pace wouldnt be “jogging”, it could be someone’s 1M race time. So too you, of course it wouldnt be “your” ext tempo pace.
Maybe i shouldnt.be using the term “ext tempo” when talking about distance training as its confusing. The way i understand ext tempo at the moment is its simply an HIEE interval method to develop oxidative system while serving as good recovery from higher speed sessions. From what i understand this isnt only limited to sprinters. Im simply looking in to the idea of something like this for my distance races. I am actually doing something very similar to my example session above on one of my low days (4 x 1M @ ~10min with 3min RI) and i was asking this question in light of that, to make sure this is serving the correct purpose i am attemping for it, and was curious as to thoughts on rest (should there be more less) to serve its purpose i am aiming for. To get some aerobic cap work and serve as recovery work between hard days.
And i maybe wrong here but yes someone that took 5 hours to run A marathon, 65% of that speed seems to be appropriate if they were to go for a 26.2 mile training “jogg” well more or less walk at that speed. (I know that would be rediculous training for that kind level of fitness especially because the amount of time it would take)
But look at it this way
A world class marathon time is around 2:10. Now 65% of this speed is about 7.30/mile. 20- 26.2 miles at 7.30 looks alot like what arthur lydiard and other top distance runners/coaches are/have been doing currently and for years with top marathoners as a easy paced long run during ealry prep.
What do you call the activity when you are traveling 2.5m/sec.?
Sure they can go for a morning easy run in 7min a mile why not especially when they can go mile in sub 4min.
The point is, when you have your maximum (it can be 50m if you pleased) then you can calculate your 65%, the longer the run the further away you are from your real maximum, further you are, the numbers/ percentages of intensification will have a less and less meaning.
You have to go with specific pace intensity or specific HR to develop aerobic capacity.
Let’s go to the extreme you have completed marathon in 10h what would be your 65% of average speed, would you use your “extensive tempo” for recovery?
Your 10min/1M. run can be used as a recovery run, sure, however most likely as a recovery run between other runs.