ext tempo/1M pace question

Expert Discussion Biomechanics and Physiology
21

Recovery for 4-6 x1M : Suggest approx 2 mins walk/jog then do the next one. If you have an HRM you can fine tune this to 120bpm.

Speed of extensive tempo : Keep it simple and dont agonise over this. You have target paces from jack daniels so stick to them . If you want to vary there are Frank Horwill or Arthur Lyddiard models. These are all specific to middle and long distance running training and so are relevant for your target distances/speeds.
A model using 100m sprint times to define extensive tempo is valid for sprinters recovering/flushing and building aerobic conditioning but I am not aware of anyone using it for endurance training - either at club level or elite level. It is not mentioned by any of the above iconic distance coaches in any of their books/papers that I have read.
In summary it is an unnecessary distraction.

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Sławomir Nowak was doing extensive tempo with his world class 800m athlete. It was based on his athlete tests performances over 1&200m. (words of my coach)
So, yes, it’s been done quite successfully.

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Training models used by Coe, Bannister etc are the majority for middle distance runners. Different athletes respond to different types of training in varied ways so sprint based tempo may work for some, but logic suggests using the most commonly used models.
Anyway 800m is short middle distance and not specific enough for 1.5M, 4M and 14M mile trial in selection.
Current elite athlete with best performances over this range of distances is mo farah.

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As I mentioned before. Both tempo workouts have totally different purpose.
As to 800m not specific enough.
There is more than enough running (as you know in both programs) to have a good 1.5M or even 4M, therefore my opinion is quite opposite. It’s specific.

25

Interestingly i did use hrm on tues for 4 x 1M session. Hr took ~ 2min to drop to 120bpm. I used 3 min ri for tues and hr was at ~105bpm.

The reason im curious about this session is because of my readings of rento canova. Here are my notes:
"5k pace divided by .93 = Lactate Threshold (4 mmol)
5k pace divided by .90 = 3 mmol (half marathon pace, app.)
5k pace divided by .87 = 2.5 mmol (marathon race pace)
5k pace divided by .75 = 1 mmol (aerobic maintenance pace)

Use the 4 mmol for shorter tempo runs, the 3 mmol for medium length tempo runs, the 2.5 mmol for long tempo-endurance runs, and the 1 mmol for aerobic maintenance and recovery distance runs.

Shorter-Length Tempo Runs = 20-30 minutes
Medium-Length Tempo Runs = 40-60 minutes
Longer-Length Tempo Runs = 70-80 minutes

*athlete with better speed development would be something like .85 at 2.5mmols and viscera for a better developed endurance system"

He also spoke of threshold intervals (slightly faster pace than shorter tempo, i believe he and many other coaches actually got this from JD what he calls cruise intervals) which i am currently doing on friday. He also talks about the possibility of basing training paces off of 1M TT. He says this isnt quite as accurate if you are training for longer distance (more aerobic dominant races) but pretty spot on if thats all you have for a recent race.

Canovas 1M training paces (these are all approx as i said above so it takes some fine tuning, just like sprint intensities, that why theres ranges):
1M pace / .75 and under is easy aerobic pace
1M pace/ .80 marathon pace (long tempo)
1M pace / .85 short tempo (staple 20min tempo run)
1M pace / .95 V02m pace
1M pace / 1.00 speed pace or as JD calls it “repetition pace”

Now i guess one can see the great similarities in calculating sprint intesities/ distance intesities, they are very similar to me. And maybe this was what ange was trying to say to me weeks ago with her saying hi/med/low being acclicable not just to sprinting events. Not only does canova use calculations such as these but from studying JDs training intesities and mildly scott christensen, arthur lydiard, pfitzinger, pete magill, thomas schwartz they all all use very similar training intensity calcs , and they are all distance oriented coaches.

Sorry for the rant but im trying to get accross the position i am understanding and can be completely wrong, ultimately that is why i am here to understand and expand my training options.

Now to circle back around to my question regarding my 4 x 1M @ 10min with 2-3min RI session im sure all you find pathetically slow. This is approx MY long tempo (about marathon pace) pace currently.
Canova talks about the possibility of spliting these longer tempo runs up (just like faster shorter tempos >cruise intervals) in segments such as 4 x 10 min segments at long tempo pace (~Marathon pace) with short rest between, acouple mins of walking/joggiing. Well this is pretty much exactly what i have been doing for my tues “low day” yet canova speaks of these as being on the “hard/high” side of sessions. Which is why making me wonder if this session is serving its purpose in my scheduled as
recovery/aerobic work or something like this should be reserved for a “hard” day and is cutting in to my recovery. James Smith uses the same setup in his spec ops manual (mile repeats at M pace on low day) though he doesnt specify rest.(so some conflicting ideas) I feel like its not hindering recovery but with my present schedule and the many variable sessions i feel like it is hard to pin point the effects of a particular session. I do feel if i did a continuous M pace run (4-8M) this would be like a long tempo run and would be a “hard” session if not on the verge of. im curious about all this for future programming ideas. Like ive said i have used “sprinters” ext tempo (1000-2000m 2-3 days/week with 1-2 days of “true speed work”) in the past and did see positive improvments in 1M times (and the ext tempo was the only session close to being distance work during this period)

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A big problem i find in talking about exercise physiology are the terms being used. A perfect example is the present conversation. Sprinters and distance runners generally use the same term such as “speed work” and mean two completley different things. Though i i feel this shouldnt be the case. To me speed work is speed work (<80m) at near or full i intensity, and IMO is not limited to sprinters and can be beneficial to an array of athletes including distance runners. Of course it should become more prominent as the race distance shortens. As well in most cases, a distance man running a speed session ( like 3x3x30m)would be lower quality as compared to a 100m athlete running the same session because the 100m mans race is more specific to this distance and systems being used making his work higher quality because hes hitting higher speeds. But as i said, to me if an athlete needs linear speed, he needs linear speed, and therefore should be using something lime above. It does not matter if he is a sprinter or distance man. Theses thoughts also carry over to exp/int tempo as well,as all other methods. From my understandings of others work (bompa, costill ect ect) ext/int tempo are not reserved for sprinters. They are simply tools, which used with the right prescription, can be used for many extremes of athletes. Ext tempo, with the correct prescription imo, should never be crippling work, it purpose is regen/oxidative work no matter sprinter or any other athlete but this is where i feel proper prescription comes in. I can definitely see 400m sprinter or middle distance men/women regularly using 400m rep ext tempo as regen/aerobic work, as id assume, they need higher volumes of ext tempo as compared to 100m dasher because of their races higher aerobic demands.

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“The point is, when you have your maximum (it can be 50m if you pleased) then you can calculate your 65%, the longer the run the further away you are from your real maximum, further you are, the numbers/ percentages of intensification will have a less and less meaning”

Well put

“Let’s go to the extreme you have completed marathon in 10h what would be your 65% of average speed, would you use your “extensive tempo” for recovery??”

As i said this is extreme. And no i wouldnt use 65% of this for recovery. The 65% relates to the distance being used and as i said before if one takes that long to cover 26.2 miles i would definitely not have someone complete the same distance at 65% or that distance period in training. In fact someone in this kind of shape it is questionable that they should even be tackling a marathon.

“Your 10min/1M. run can be used as a recovery run, sure, however most likely as a recovery run between other runs”

10min/M pace is currently around my marathon pace unfortunately. And this pace continuous for say 4-6 miles i can tell you would definitely not be recovery work for me. More like a long threshold run. My current 10k is around 56min, so a 4-6M run at 10min/M is ~ 90% my 10k speed, too fast for recovery, more like a long threshold session, on the “harder” side of things. I would likley need a recovery session or 2 preceding/proceding a session like this. This is why i split it up in to 4 x 1M (with couple mins rest b/w) (i am adding volume weekly to this session as well, so in about 6-7 weeks this session will likley be around 8 x 1M) and referred to it as being like a ext tempo for a distance runner. Though my original question was/still is if one thinks this is recovery work or not.

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I was only entertaining the thought of the possibility of using traditional ext tempo after this 12 weeks cycles are up. And inquiring for future use beyond preperation, in the teams god willing. It has worked well for me in the past as ive said recently. I have heard of coaches using ext tempo directly for distance (steve magness, christensen, schwartz, canova, bompa). Ive also had the thought distance coaches such as JD, pfitzinger, lydiard ,hadd, cabral, the coe’s use something very similar to ext tempo but just call them strides. I dont know how many times ive seen prominent distance coaches such as listed prescribing 10-30 x 100m -400m strides @ 800m- 10k pace as a workout or even thrown in before, during, after other types of runs. This is just higher volume (compared to 100m dasher) ext tempo to me.

29

Tempo runs for mid/long distance runners are NOT regen/oxidative workouts (how much regeneration you can get from going 20/30x200 in 27/29 sec. or 8-12M in 4.40/5min/M?) they are SPECIFIC event workouts. Long easy runs are being used as a recovery workout for those above and at the elite level could be performed twice a day of high volume (Mo, total 17 miles of two recovery runs)