So if we don’t need speed squats, I guess we also don’t need olympic lifts.
Why such an analogy?
Well if we’re saying speed in the weight room doesn’t matter, what do we need olympic lifts for?
The size principal is not set in stone. it is a way for the CNS to control movement efficiently. you body realizes it needs to generate more force ie it recruits more powerful fibers. But there are certain circumstances where this is not the case, under circumstances where force must be generated quickly the “size principal” goes out the window. so doing things like training ballistic (dynamic method) and rebound methods, and altitude drops all change the normal recruitment pattern. the more proficient one is in the above mentioned methods the greater the rate of force development ie explosive power. Siff has documented this, Zatsiorsky, Verk. ect ect. for anyone who hasn’t read supertraining I really really really recommend that you do. almost everything I talk about is documented and laid out in that book. consider EMS the idea is to recruit the fast twitch muscle fiber, yes? well what good would that be if the effect does not remain after the pads are of the skin. so with EMS and training it s about “reprogramming” the CNS to achieve a certain goal.
that’s flawed. I know you are referring to the force velocity curve discovered by A.V. Hill. but you have to consider the context because that does not always apply. F = MA so you can achieve the same force by having a greater mass and a lesser acceleration (F= Ma) or you can have a equal or even greater force with a small mass accelerated rapidly (F=m*A). now the training effect will be different. but both have a place in training. Understanding this is the key to kinetic accumulation training where falling height and not load has an exponentially greater effect on training load. you have to consider the context of applying AV Hills work.
ok I’ve been trying to get across for sometime the importance of training the CNS. i really believe that you are limiting you training options. but lets look at what you said and really break it down. you said the weight room is for building strength. What kind of strength? im guessing you are referring to absolute strength. but what benefit does being able to squat a lot have on being able to run fast. in one you are moving a very heavy load relatively slowly in the other u are moving only your body weight and get this gravity plays a relatively small part in the event. you are really trying to overcome inertia more than load (the idea behind training with inertial loads ie the impulse inertia apparatus). only when we consider the neurological ramifications of training with maximal loads do we start to understand the transfer to sprinting. during the lifting of heavy weight our body recruits a large number of motor units and recruits at a high frequency of rate coding. both of these is highly desired physiological traits when running fast. But there are other methods to achieve the same neurological adaptations. continued training with light loads lifted at maximal velocity teaches the system to recruit maximally and turn on quickly. So instead of force being slowly ramped up to complete the movement maximal force is generated upon initiation of the movement. why do you think the guys at westside use this method. IT IS ALL NEUROLOGICAL. all training need be is inducing a stressor to effect a desired adaption. get it? I hope so. personally I don’t make a distinction between what happens on the track or what happens in the weight room. it all about training the CNS to get a desired outcome. a maximal sprint induces a type of stress, a maximal load another but there are many many many methods that can be used to sprint fast and do it without becoming injured.
Well… speed of execution is paramount for finishing a maximal clean or snatch (you can’t do it slowly). Sure, it’s vital to do it fast, but that’s not the only reason to do OL:s – speed of execution is often just a positive by product so to speak – motor unit recruitment, generality and ballistics being other important issues.
My two cents on the speed-squat-issue: From the perspective of program design, I don’t see a reason why the elements, searched for in speed squats, couldn’t be achieved within the synergy from sprinting, plyos, squat and/or OL:s. We can never do everything; my sense of priority would thus have them excluded – I really can’t find a meaningful place for them.
why not flip that, if u pc and ps why speed squat??
James makes some interesting points there. Respek 
ps. I love O.L 
Speed squat is easier to perform technically. I don’t have to spend hours/sessions/weeks teaching the technique to novice/intermediate athletes.
No, the context does not matter. You simply cannot exert as much force when the muscle is shortening more rapidly. If your 1rm bench is 100kg = 1000N, you cannot achieve as much force with a 50kg load - no matter how how you try as it then will move a lot faster than the heavier weight.
that same adaption that occurs with Olympic lifts can be had by other means. i am sure that most of you have heard of the study done during the Mexico Olympics (I believe) in which they found that o. lifters had greater verts than the best high jumpers and better 10m times than the best sprinters. what we have to do is understand what it is about o.l. that creates such a positive adaptive effect toward power sports. the catch phase of the clean elicits a powerful muscular contraction via reflex. and teaches the body to efficiently absorb the force generated by the falling load. and the more force a person can EFFICIENTLY absorb the more they can express (generate). also like the speed squat there is an inversion of the size principal (or at least there is after proper adaption has taken place) upon the initiation of the movement. the same effect and even more intense effect can be achieved through other means.
so the basic laws of physics don’t apply. by natural law a force acted on a mass will produce a given acceleration the same force applied to a smaller mass will result in a greater acceleration. this is very basic. so yes the external force of a sub maximal load moved with a greater acceleration can exceed that of the force generated with a maximal load. force = mass * ACCELERATION!!!
well although i WOULDN’T DOUBT the vertical jumping abilities (or 20m dashes) of lean olympic lifters, (77kg-85kg-94kg), i think that Mexico survey was flawed from many standpoints. Besides could someone at last, find and post that actual survey ?
Of course the laws of mechanics apply… I never said anything else. We’re going in circles… bye.
i take it u have no further points of contention since in neither of my posts did u contest my factual statements.
mexico:a study done at the olympics???who are the athletes that agreed to it?
lol the point was simply that Olympic lifting had the byproduct of producing athletes who at the elite level display high levels of jumping and sprinting ability. the aggregates of the o.l. summate to produce a very pronounced training effect, but if you concentrate of those components of the lift you can achieve an even greater training effect via differing means.
James,
Regarding the force/velocity point:
Say you have an athlete with a 1RM of 200kg. Assuming they perform this max weight with near 0 velocity, they put out a force of (m)(a)= (200)(10)= 2000N. The acceleration needed to exert a force of 2000N on a submaximal weight, say 50%, would be equal to the acceleration due to gravity, 10m/s^2, which is much faster than possible.
This makes me think the force velocity curve point made by Anders holds true. Let me know if I’ve erred somewhere.
ok the way u setup you example is flawed. one u have the maximal load moving at an acceleration of 10 m/s/s which just wouldn’t happen. second yes a person should be able to accelerate a load at 10m/s/s with a sub-maximal load. but when considering force generated in the weight room the equations can actually get more complex than f = ma. force can also be expressed my the equation f = m(vsub1^2/2ssub1 + g) + m(vsub2^2/2ssub2 + g). a casual glance and the equation will show that the effect of velocity is exponentially more powerful than that of a load. this is why a altitude drop (NOT a depth jump) from a altitude of 3.4m causes and athlete to experience ground contact forces of over 20 times their body weight and a sprinter experience a ground contact force of over 6 times their body weight on each leg during each stride that is 3000lbs and 900lbs of force generated for an athlete weighing 150lbs. try to replicate that with maximal effort.