No you can be naturally fast; however, strength is the great equalizer to compete against people who are born with genetic gifts. Also, strength can make people that are born with good genetics who can sprint fast even faster!
So to be the best I do believe you need to be strong in order to see your greatest potential!
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showpost.php?p=58598&postcount=35
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=1415
LOL
(in robotic voice)need more input!
Both are relative terms…‘fast’ over what distance, ‘strong’ how?
The shorter the distance the more strength is needed.
As the distance increases, the more conditioning comes into play.
But you can also be naturally strong! 
I think its best to look at it on an individual level, instead of comparing different people.
Any individual who gets stronger will get faster. And vice versa.
And that is the question… Strength needs to be defined…
Strong can be defined as lifting heavy weight or absolute strength. However strength is also defined as power or strength at speed!
Now if needforspeed meant, "do you have to lift heavy weights to run fast” makes it a more specific question with definite parameters.
Can one not be naturally strong also? Is power not strength at speed?
As a matter of fact the second thread you quoted defines sprinting strength in terms of power.
“During sprinting, the only resistance is the weight of the body. Therefore, am I to conclude that the primary means by which strength training improves sprint performance is by making it possible to overcome ones bodyweight more easily (hence faster)? The only other thing I can think of is that improved leg strength would allow the athlete to apply more force to the ground…”
How can you be fast without power? And, how can you have power without strength?
Ah… we posted at the same time. However, I mentioned that statement in the form of a question. Hopefully to give SVS the opportunity to answer it himself…
T-Bone and Scarface, you guys seemed to have missed the point.
Yes you can be strong and not fast. Yes you can be fast and not strong. But can you be strong and fast YES. So why not be both and be the best you can be.
Let me rephrase my statement, "I think Carl Lewis would have been a faster sprinter if he had lifted wts and did cleans, I also think Ben would have been faster had he been able to do plyo’s and cleans. This may sound arrogant to forum members bc some may assume that this means I know more than CF or Tom Tellez. I don’t!
I’m basing my opinion on the stuff I learned at the CF seminar and one of those things was that in his Vertical Integration chart, one or more components are maintained while one or more components are improved upon. This means plyos at certain points are done moreso than others and the same goes for exercise selection in the wt room (i.e. more Motor Unit involvement “multijoint” movements like cleans take presidence over less multijoint movements like the squat the closer one gets to competition in terms of not only volume but also elimination of some exercises). Therefore, if Ben had been able to Clean and do Plyo’s he would have been in better overall condition for his races and the same can be said about Carl; furthermore, this applies to all sprinters. CF mentions in the forum review that there is more than 1 way to skin a cat; well, I believe that there are many solutions to a problem, however, the person that finds the most efficient solution will have the best one! What this means is that one coach can have a 9.79 sprinter in 10 years whereas an another can have one in 8 years; also, the one in 8 years can still improve in the next two years if we compare two sprintes, say who’s total shelf-life is 10 years! Since time is a factor in a sprinters career, Efficiency is the key to success and further advancement! CF had EMS, Wts, Plyo’s, Tempo work, and Core Conditioning as opposed to other coach’s who may have only had some if any at all of these methods in addition to sprinting! Like previously mentioned he also had exercise selection and variation.
I’ll put this idea to you in another way, Look at Walmart: The products offered by the retail giant are the same products offered in other stores but at a lower cost; therefore, Walmart steals other companies customers by undercutting them while still having the same profit margin because they find ways to have their materials produced for a lower cost which enables the retail giant to undercut competitors. Walmart does this bc has a retail giant they can force suppliers to lower their costs; as well as, hiring cheap labor abroad and knowing what products bring in customers (they have the biggest computer next to the Pentagon and when you buy something it shows up in there computer minutes later). It’s a matter of EFFICIENCY through Cost in Walmart’s case.
I do believe my above statement to be correct so let this debate begin!
SOME of your information is correct. It is your interpretation that is the issue.
Tell us: How can you “be fast and not strong?”
How can Carl Lewis jump 29ft + and NOT be strong?
Hint: I am NOT talking about lifting heavy weights here… I am talking about the strength in the power equation.
Answer those questions DIRECTLY please! Not really interested in Walmart’s efficiency or woulda, coulda shoulda’s…
I just had to address this statement…
Are you kidding me? Ben “would have been in better overall condition for his races?” Don’t know how old you were in 1988, but I specifically remember Ben not only easing up while running 9.79. I remember Ben being known as one of the few sprinters then that could run fast repeatedly. The man was breaking new ground. The man was it GREAT condition.
You say if he added more modalities to his training he would have been better… Same for Carl… And I say Hogwash. If you understand the energy envelope and the like, you will understand at the level they were more is not always better.
It’s just not that simple. And I do think its shear arrogance to pretend that you could have made those guys faster. Hell! Lets see you train a 10.50 sprinter into sub10. That would be impressive! After all, you’re the one making outrageous claims!
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I’m basing my opinion on the stuff I learned at the CF seminar and one of those things was that in his Vertical Integration chart, one or more components are maintained while one or more components are improved upon. This means plyos at certain points are done moreso than others and the same goes for exercise selection in the wt room (i.e. more Motor Unit involvement “multijoint” movements like cleans take presidence over less multijoint movements like the squat the closer one gets to competition in terms of not only volume but also elimination of some exercises). Therefore, if Ben had been able to Clean and do Plyo’s he would have been in better overall condition for his races and the same can be said about Carl;
I would like to mention something about cleans and squats. Yes, it’s true that cleans have more motor units involved than squats do. I don’t know that percentages (still waiting for info on ordering the Review Books) except that Charlie says squats are around 65%. However, I believe that cleans tax the CNS more than squats do. So, when people say that Ben should have done cleans with squats or instead of squats it could have less than a positive affect compared to squats. I think that this is especially true when you take into account the maintenance phase of weight training. With people saying Ben would have run faster if he had done plyos…BS! The guy is doing sprinting practically all year so in effect doing the best plyo for sprinting there is.
I think that I’ll paraphrase Charlie…“when looking at programs of past athletes, it is a history lesson. If you change them then you’ll change the outcome as well.”
Again you are missing the point. Carl Lewis is strong if he can jump 29ft +. What I am saying is that if had lifted wts his start for one, would improve. If had done cleans at an olympic level (if possible bc cleans at an olympic level take time and I don’t know if any sprinter ever got to that level but it is the idea here that they could come close), he would be faster in the acceleration phase.
I never said that I could train a sprinter to be sub 10. Hell, In no way shape or form do I think I am even at CF’s level, that would be preponderous! I simply have a belief/opinion and am sticking to it!
There are various forms of strength and speed or a better phrase would be "Using the body in Different ways to overcome Different Resistances at Different Speeds); such as,
Strength (From lifting wts)
Strength-Speed (From lifting wts)
Speed-Strength (Plyo’s, Explosive Med ball throws, Med Ball accelerations, resisted sprinting)
Speed (Sprinting)
In Utilizing number 1 and 2 above,
We all know that an increase in strength on the Force-Velocity curve an increase in strength will shift the curve up alot the moreso you are on the Force end of the curve. As you move towards the velocity end, the amount that each point on the curve shift’s up becomes less and less to the point where on the Velocity end there is little to no improvement.
In Utilizing number 3 above,
We all know that an increase in doing speed-strength exercises will shift the curve up alot the moreso you are on the Velocity end of the curve. As you move towards the Force end, the amount that each point on the curve shifts up becomes less and less to the point where on the Force end there is little to no improvement.
In Utilizing number 4 above,
We all know that an increase in doing speed-work will shift the entire curve up curve; albeit, less so in the Force end and moreso in the Velocity end.
All the pieces of the puzzle (1,2,3,4) must be utilized in the most efficient manner in order to produce the best result for the sprinter.
Quoting Zatsiosrky, "To be a strong athlete does not mean to be a power athlete. It is true that all elite power athletes are very strong people. On the other hand, not all strong individuals can execute movement powerfully when combining large force and high velocity.
Train rate of force development (RFD)…Enhance not only maximal (Fmm) but also dynamic strength–the force developed at a high velocity of movement. Utilize drills requiring the utmost muscular effort against moderate [minimal] resistance (the method of dynamic effort). Employ specific drills and methods to improve reversible muscle (stretch-shortening) muscle action. This is a specific motor ability"
Read my post again, I said “close to” 300 lb (closer in the bench than in the clean). You took what you wanted from it.
I guess if I told you that Carl was also lifting before some of
his running workouts in 1996 you would also say “BS”.
X-man, a lot of things were done different in 96 from the time you were there (Im guessing). I see LB and FH almost every day and chat with Thomas often, so you know I am not BSing.
Actually, you’re the one missing the point that had Carl lifted weights when he was running 9.90’s on top of plyo’s and long jumping it could’ve affected his power -hence his start negatively for one. On that level, you are a finely tuned machine; more work can negatively affect you.
SVS, you are able to quote learned information and have a rudimentary understanding, but you are coming to simplistic, inaccurate and inconclusive conclusions.
This quote that your are using proves my point… He said, “it is true that all elite power athletes are very strong people.” Do you even realize that he is saying that not all strong athletes are powerful, but all powerful athletes are strong. Hence my original point that Carl IS strong
Again power requires strength, but strength does not require power… Yes, efficiency is important. It was efficient for Carl to spend his time at the velocity end of the curve improving power and strength came along with it.
Plus, Don’t forget that you are not the only member that has studied Charlie’s methods. I have been a member since the old forum in 2002 and have read his books and have some of his DVD’s, so I am fully aware of the information you are presenting…
You need to step back from the all knowing for a second to improve understand…
PS. So do you still stand by “No” to the original question “Do you have to be strong to be fast”
Hint: Don’t forget your Zatsiosrky quote
Its ok we’re use to you by now! 
This is a bit of a oxymoron, what you’re basically saying is that, CF, who coached the fastest man, taught you something that could have made him faster?!
Like Scarface said, what works in theory doesn’t always work in the real world.
It seems like you’re just suggesting adding more work. Remember the envelope, adding more volume in one area and you’ll have to decrease volume on something else.
The same mechanism that produces strength also produces speed…muscular contraction. The more forceful the muscle contracts at impulse the more force AND speed are generated in the working limb. Only muscle causes movement.
It would be better to ask, "does one have to be forceful to be fast?" and the answer to that is yes.
When we use the word strength we immediately think of lifting weights but the definition of strength is simply "the ability to apply force.
“Expressions” of strength are variable. The length of the limbs and the fact that weight lifting is a skill itself means that some very forceful individuals may not fit the typical definition of strong
Well stated…
In the first page of this thread I asked for a definition of “strong”; if this isn’t defined, this thread will never end!
Kelly made a point…
SVS, if you try and put together P. Dimas’ (maximum) strength, J. Edwards speed strength and B. Johnson’s top speed, would you have the perfect sprinter? It doesn’t work this way and you know it and the rest are assumptions -you can’t talk by assumptions, only theorise!
PS please, don’t take the examples above as fully accurate (:o ), but you get the picture…
I’m not suggesting more work! I am suggesting that if Carl had his work periodized and was able to do all the things Charlie lists in his Vertical Integratation chart at the proper time that Carl would have been even faster! Tom Tellez was a great coach but the not the best one!
I understand the notion of a finely tuned machine; however, you are suggesting that weight work may have affected him negatively and I don’t disagree with that (do to improper use of wts at the inappropriate volumes and times). What I do disagree with is saying that sprinters don’t have to do weights in order to be the best and I disagree with that.
Again, you seem to be missing the point that I know what you are saying and agree with you! However, I do believe that wt work used in the appropriate volume and timing would have made Carl a faster sprinter! I put that quote in there specifically for you to know that I understand what you are saying but you don’t seem to think that I do!
If you are aware of CF’s Vertical Integration Chart, Maximizing Explosive Power chart, and his Motor Unit Involvement Chart you would know the importance of wts utilized at the proper time. I am not all knowing but I do know this, when approaching the competition period quoting CF, “The overall weightlifting volume drops more than other high intensity components as weightlifting is a less specific training activity. Complex weightlifting exercises, such as power cleans and snatches become more important due to the need to minimize the overall number of lifts performed while maintaining the number of motor units activated.”
Also, regarding training Ben all I was saying was that “Had BJ actual been able to do plyo’s and cleans he would have been faster” I am not saying I could get him to do these! He didn’t do these bc ,
He had problems with his knees in terms of doing plyo’s
He was awful at the Olypmic Lifts and the time for him to learn the lifts and get to an elite level in the lifts was not going to come anytime soon.
Would he have been faster if he could have done these? You say no! I say Yes, bc if he couldn’t have gotten faster doing these than why would I a sprinter of similar build and strength waste my time doing plyo’s and cleans! But the fact of the matter is, that he wasn’t able to do these so given what he was able to do he did achieve the best that he could!
Answer: bc they work! If they don’t then how come the fastest people in the 10-20m range are Olympic Lifters!
All I am suggesting is trying to find the best solution possible and for people to say it doesn’t exist is pretty arrogant! Either Plyo’s and Cleans and Wts are all utilized at various points throughout the year and career of a sprinter bc all these modalities work in combination to achieve the best result or one or more of these things should be thrown out if they don’t work better than the other modalites. If use the argument only two of these should be used then the third one should be thrown out!
They either work or they don’t; beit, in certain combinations and volumes. If powerlifting isn’t
going to help me bc I can already do plyo’s and cleans then why bother doing powerlifting! The same goes for cleans and plyos! I don’t believe the statement that, “one modality works for some people but not others!” That’s a line of horseshit! In Ben’s case he had no other alternatives to plyo’s and cleans so lifting wts still got him to be the best but all this means is that it was the best course for him given his conditions; however, it doesn’t mean that it was the best course for him if he didn’t have those conditions!
You are correct in assuming that unless strength gets defined this debate will never end and we are all just going in circles of each other. I do believe you can be powerful without being strong in the wt room; however, I do believe that strength in the wt room utilized in the most efficient manner will help a sprinter to be better than he already is! At least so in the long run. I believe squats help you in the in first 7m of 100m race, I believe that in the 7-30m range cleans help you more than any other component (of course without a decent squat you won’t have a decent clean, the correlation here is the key) plyo’s help you moreso after the 30m mark with different types of plyo’s helping you at different points of the race (including the intial 30m but here plyo’s don’t help you as much as cleans and squats) and finally after the 30m mark I believe just practicing sprinting helps you the rest of the way as well!
To eliminate one of these components will end up costing you at a certain portion of the race. I also do understand the energy enevelope so lets not go there!
“I’m not suggesting more work! I am suggesting that if Carl had his work periodized and was able to do all the things Charlie lists in his Vertical Integratation chart at the proper time that Carl would have been even faster! Tom Tellez was a great coach but the not the best one!” (Supervenomsuperman)
SV, you can’t just say anything that comes to your mind. Who is the best coach? Tom Tellez had two record holders in the 100m, about 5 guys going sub 10, about 4 going sub 20, a bunch of olympians, a 29’2"+ long jumper, a world record 4x100m and 4x200m relay teams, etc etc etc.
You have to know your history SV.
I am still waiting for this to be proven. The most that anyone has brought to the argument is seeing an elite Oly lifter out sprint a 10.4 sprinter to 10 or 20m (possibly), and that isn’t even all that reliable. On top of that, a 10.4, while great, is almost half a second behind the elites in the sprints.
Also forgetting SVS that what works for one may be detrimental to another. Including plyos takes away from the CNS pool available for heavy weights, which may or may not be a good thing. The same goes for Oly lifts. Just like wasting time taking .1 off of Carl’s start when he may have been able to take off .2 at the end, the opposite is true for Ben (working on the start is more important than the end).