Theone, I can only not only by results but also what I have seen in terms of CF methods of success. If I had an inside view to Tellez methods (which you probably have given you recent posts) then perhaps my opinion would change. There is also a huge talent pool in the U.S.A and here in Canada if you are able to get somebody under 10s then it truly is that much more impressive compared to other countries who have a bigger pool to draw upon. Tellez was one of the best ever. But the best? I can’t say that bc he might had a bigger talent pool to pick out of. But like I said If I saw a glimpse into his training programs my opinion might change. All I can say is that I have never ever seen anything like a Vertical Integration chart and the way CF counted everything and prescribed the workouts in the volumes and intensities is astonishing. I still have trouble seeing how one man was able to all this (I know he learned from other coach’s but WOW).
Charlie is great, possibly (probably) the smartest ever, but to say TT’s success came from having a larger talent pool is plain idiotic and you know it. You do not just get to pick your athletes, they come to you. He did not just take amazing athletes and give them workouts to get them by. John Smith’s is different from Charlie’s and he has 2 of the fastest men ever with him. Clyde Hart may have produced the greatest overall sprinter of all time and his training is nothing close to CF’s. Different does not mean bad. CF has Ben and Tim partially to his credit. TT has Lewis, Marsh, Burrell, etc. Smith has Boldon, Greene, Drummond. Clyde has MJ, Wariner, etc. All much different ideas. Don’t get it confused SVS.
Agreed. While I have incredible respect for Charlie I also have a great deal of respect for Tellez. Both had stables of pony’s but I think that Charlie developed his stable from scratch. I could be wrong on this point. I just don’t know the specifics of Tellez’s camp back in the day.
I’m not so sure that you can just break the 100m down like that. I don’t know the exact foot contact times during the race but I thought that they were somewhere between 0.8 - 1.2 seconds. The point being that speed is the first and foremost concern when sprinting. It’s really like Charlie says,all things are just a means to an end, the end being greater speed. Plyos are next with contact times being somewhere in the vacinity of 0.15 - 0.4 seconds. There’s a whole thread on Organism Stregth that I think that everybody (myself included) could read a couple of times first before continuing this thread.
Well, I see we are moving from “do you have to be strong to be fast” to “vertical integration.”
Before I start, SVS please don’t take this as trying to bust your chops. You seem like generally a nice guy that tries to help…
On Vertical Integration… You have the idea that if an athlete doesn’t integrate one of the training modalities on the Vertical Integration chart (In Carls case weights, in Ben’s case plyo and Olympic lifts) they are missing something and if they added it properly things will improve.
Ok here’s the thing… ALL the training modalities on the Vertical Integration chart work. But the complicated process is answering, why where, when and how.
For example: Why would you take a 9.90s sprinter and spend time teaching him a new skill (like how to lift weights) when he can spend time on the velocity end of the curve?
In Carl’s case do you think that maybe all Carl needed was more therapy and rest from long jumping to improve his start/speed? Do you remember Charlie saying that when an athlete is at the highest level CNS workouts are more intense and regeneration and recovery is paramount? So why more modalities? Oh yeah because it works right?
Few other things…
Actually, I’m not making an affirmation either way. All I am trying to get across to you is that implementing weights might not have improve Carl’s speed for reasons I stated previously…
It’s not necessarily that it doesn’t work for some, its more of does that individual need that modality.
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Does a 9.90 sprinter need to lift weights for strength?
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Do a 9.79 sprinter need more plyo, and clean for power?
Yes, you say? Then where should I put it? What modality should I compromise or minimize to integrate this new modality? Sprinting maybe?
PS. I see some others are providing you with good food for thought. I think I’ll end my portion of the debate here… Good luck SVS!
Thanks for your response, I think I am done too, there’s no point in beating a dead horse!
We have made are opinions known and now is the time for other forum members to voice there thoughts!
I think this is a very great point. As Charlie has pointed out there comes a point when the forces generated on the track are way more than anything that can be done in the weightroom.
There is now answer to who is the best coach. Neither Tellez or Charlie had a manual or a website like this to help them produce sub10 or sub 20 or WR sprinters, they both were on uncharted waters. So you have to conclude they both were pretty smart.
Charlie has to be giving credit for sharing how he did it. Tellez methods are a little harder to come by. However, the two methods have more in common than differences. Especially when it comes to the “art” part of coaching. For example, CF’s " wait for it"/ TT’s “relax and let the speed come out” and they both cue pulling the arms down. Charlie says think twice speak once, Tellez says its more important what you don’t tell the athlete.
As I told SV before there is more to coaching than charts and numbers.
How about using CT’s classifications of strong/very strong in terms of coefficients. I think I saw that somewhere on this site.
Strong is?
2.5xbw full squat, 2.8xbw parallel squat
1.7xbw bench/power clean
What do you think?
And define a 100m time, say sub 10?
i agree THEONE but when you have an athlete like carl lewis he would have been in this teritory with so so coaching.TT made him change his jump technique and promised him that if he did so it would reap great rewards and it surely did.what TT did to carl lewis was longevity! carl could have been a great 1/4 miler.
with all this taken into consideration TT has continued to produce great sprinters.the likes of carl,leroy burrell,mark witherspoon,floyd heard,sam jefferson,joe de loach,kirk baptist,mike marsh and so on from other countries makes his coaching or methods quite impressive.
i have great respect for both charlie and especially TT who helped me greatly and to produce numerous olympians,sub 10 and 20’s and last but not least numerous WR holders and gold medalist athletes is quite remarkable!!!
Just curious…
So, Can it be said that most athletes CNS impulses are the same? Is the only thing that seperates the scrubs from the better athletes is contractile force of the muscles (and other things like conditioing)?
Just curious…
So, Can it be said that most athletes CNS impulses are the same? Is the only thing that seperates the scrubs from the better athletes is contractile force of the muscles (and other things like conditioing)?
No, the CNS is not the same but yes the contractile force of the muscles separates the better athletes from the scrubs. Let me see if I can find an easy way to describe this.
Ok “speed of movmeent” and “running speed” are 2 entirely different things. Speed of movement and quickness are the ability to move in the absence of force. Typing on that keyboard right now requires very little force…If you’re an average typer there are girls who can probably type twice as fast as you can. Now if your objective was to type while trying to destroy the keys with force then you’d blow the girls away. Sprinting is more like that “destroying the keys with force” then it is simply moving your fingers fast.
Anyone can lay on their back and cycle their legs faster then elite sprinters. It’s the amoutn of force exerted at the high speed that propels one down the track and that is key.
Questions 
I prolly know the answer to this one but, are some atheletes CNS better than others? Can this be measured?
What are some other factors that might effect speed on the track besides contractile force and CNS?
Of the top of my head:
movement efficiency
and strength to wieght ratio.
Sorry for the rambling… Ive always been interested in this topic. I have seen guys who look great on the track and in the wieght room then they get blown away by some skinny dude who can lift to save his life.
ooops did I do that? :o
Yes you did, need4speed. You should be ashamed of yourself for enticing SvSpM out of his cave… err uhh… I mean… you should be ashamed of yourself for stimulating an intellectual debate. :o