Do we need to be SORE to GROW?

Swelling is very temporary- you need to keep reinforcing it till the last second before a show.

Exactly. I am not talking about athletic performance I am talking about strictly asthtetics as this post was meant to focus on.

Great posts here guys… I wasn’t expecting such a disussion…

Actually my belief was that sorenes is NOT needed for GROWTH (bodybuilding) but in some of the last articles on the web I found that some experts says it is… So I started the thread.

As for athletic purposes… DOMS should be avoided like hell! As Rooney stated consistency and adequate loading is the key. It is natural to expect that begginers get a mild degree from first gym wokout and that’s it. It is detrimental to pursuit DOMS intentionally, because muscles are more stiff and nociception (a.k.a. pain) can modify motor control of the movements and cause (a)injury, and (b) poor motor skill acquisition. On the other hand, I heard from the some player that they love to play under mild form of DOMS!!! :eek: They say it allows them to play better… :confused:
Anyway, when it comes to athletic purpose DOMS should be avoided. Charlie’s concurent approach is a nice way to do it, by avoiding sharp changes in training (micro)cycles and having all components presented in one (micro)cycle. As Charlie put it out, any sharp change cause ‘Adaptive stiffnes’.
But does that means that we shouldn’t change training at all? Apsolutelly NO, but don’t do it before a major meet/game and when you do it expect DOMS.

When it comes to bodybuilding… well this is the topic for this thread…
As QUIK has pointed out, the theory behind growth is microtrauma… but I think this is flawed. As you all know, Zatsiorsky presented another ‘energy model’ when energy for protein synthesis is used during workout and after that energy for synthesis is supercomensated. Does this means microtrauma or appropriate hormonal milleu in muscle? Anyway, where is DOMS? In muscle (sacrocemera) or in connective tissue?
Lyle have put the most common-sense proof for ‘DOMS is not needed for growth’.
Even if the DOMS is not needed for growth, cycling between reps/sets/exercises/tempo is needed to hit various parts of the muscle and different muscle fibers (FT/ST) and this can cause DOMS as any other change will.


Is DOMS never present after concentric action only training?

Great question!
Suppose the likehood is less than in eccentric/concentric training, due eccentric mechanisms (less motor units used, thus greater force per a individual motor unit and thus greater stres/microtrauma)

Just a quick question, why do i always 100% of the time get doms after repeat body weight squats or lunges 50+ per rep for squats and 30+ per rep of lunges, and never when doing weighted lunges or squats (10 reps or fewer).

Even if I use progression, for example 2x per week, then add 5 to lunges and 10 to squats the next week.

Another question might be: Why do you continue to repeat an action with a constantly adverse result?

Is it adverse if DOMS is needed to improve strength endurance? Why the hell do you need it popequique? :slight_smile:
I do some of 24-30 reps of split squats with medball overhead & medball circuits for 20-30 reps on my ‘tempo days’, but I do not get the DOMS. If you get the DOMS from tempo workout, then Charlies though is on place :wink:

DOMS is NOT needed. Never go to that point.
It’s just one more example of planning to succeed, not fail!
For example, do you suppose Popequique would have been stuck at the same place if he’d started more moderately? Might he not by now be doing the same or more reps without DOMS if he’d had a proper progression over the prolonged period in which he’s suffered now?

A-men. One of the toughest things to get across to athletes these days is that the definition of hard work that includes the “no pain no gain” mentality that most of the pre-packaged programs dish out is wrong. To them being sore the next day is evidence of a good workout. Few of them understand that it is the intensity of the work done that defines how hard it was since it is the intensity that directly effects the CNS. If DOMS is an issue past the typical two weeks that it takes to adapt to a new training stimulus, I know something is wrong with the workouts, or the athlete isn’t being consistent with their workouts (for whatever reason…sometimes it is a matter of not having facilities or equipment available).

I did not have constantly adverse results though or I would have stopped.

The bulk of my use of it was building my vertical back in highschool. It was a 15 week progression, began at 3x30 squat, 3x15 lunge. I believe ended at 3x125/150 something like that, and about half that for the lunge.

Twice per week, constant improvement, performed it two summers, started at slightly different reps the second time, ended up 8inches the first time and 4 the second time.

Obviously that wasnt all that was in the program, but that is what caused the dom.

I can still do more reps now, but get doms through the whole range, i can do reps up to 300 reps body weight squat but i still feel dom after rep ranges around 25, but never with weighted lower reps.

So its not poor technique or i would feel it in weighted squat as well, its not pushing the limit or deteriating form is done well below the max i can do.

What are you doing post workout and for recovery?

Then, 6 years ago, nothing.

Now, depends contrast or sauna if i get a chance.

What does that have to do with why i get doms for one thing all the time and the other not at all.

I am not arguing if its good or bad, I just want to know why.

Well below the max you can do but not below the max you can do and recover from. I’m pretty sure you would have made greater gains if you’d been able to avoid the DOMS- in fact I can’t see how you wouldn’t have.

Not sure why you would perform sets of 125 to 150 reps for vertical jump improvement. Were you trying to improve your vertical jump endurance?

Regarding DOMS, I have a TheraStim unit and I must say that for recovery from high intensity workouts, it has been second to none for myself and my athletes. I have been reading much of the research behind DC currents and the effect on regeneration in the book by Becker called Body Electric. Fascinating stuff!

Great thread. I agree with every thing thats been said.

Just a thought; perhaps Poloquins ‘for the boys’ writing style has lead to some confusion - inducing DOMS through frequently changing workouts might be symtematic of the required level of variation needed to maintain muscle growth?

But every 6 workouts does seem alot.

I remember CP claiming that you needed it, like a sunburn as a ‘base’ before a tan. (Makes about the same amount of sense)


How do you avoid at least mild DOMS when you have athletes perform depletion work? I normally get at least some DOMS after performing depletion push-ups if I really put everything into it I can.

Ask Alan Wells, Herschel Walker, or a lot of street ballers why you perform high rep work. Earl Manigault (the goat) used ankle weights. But all of them were foolish and were good in spite of their training, right?

I did it for something to try for 4 weeks give it a shot you know.

And it worked, so I continued and it continued to work and so forth.