Ok I admitt, I am little stumped here:) I have trained my self and others for along time now and allways been a know it all done it all, but now I need help.
Growing up in Eastern Europe I have learned many secrets of training that I apply to this day. Still one question arises and that is how high should we be squatting in season.
Our school was
Off Season Deep Squats
Pre Season (team sports) Mid Season (T&F) 90 degrees squats
In season only and only 100 degrees squats EXPLOSIVE sets of 5
Same with one leged step-ups on the bench.From squat lunge to 25 cm max elevation explosive stepups.
It worked great for me ( Pole Vault 11.13 (electronicly) -100 m at age of 19) and it seems it works fine for the athletes I am working with.
Can someone explain me the rationale and the reasoning behind this if any. I am just surviving using my common sense and good memory of everything I have learned from my late coach.
Peace 
I advocate full squats throughout the whole season. Converting to partial variations carries a conditioning (injury!) risk since different kinematics are involved. Also the gleutes and hamstrings are recruited more in the lower range.
If I WAS to use this strategy I would not increase load with decreased ROM (so as not to increase CNS stress) and would increase volume to maintain time under tension.
I UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU’RE COMMING FROM BUT ALSO CONSIDER THAT MY TEAM ATHLETES ARE PLAYING ABOUT 1-2 TIMES A WEEK WHERE I CAN NOT AFFORD TO HAVE THEM SORE AFTER A SQUAT EFFORT ( AND MOST OF THEM WILL FROM EXPERIENCE). HOWEVER , THEI’RE TRAINING FOR THEIR SPORT NOT TO BE A BETTER SQUATERS.
HIGH SQUATING HELPS AVOID MICROTEARS AND POST WORKOUT SORENES, VASTUS MEDIALIS IS FULLY CONTRACTED AND SO THE TRACTION OF THE KNEE SEEMS SAFE ( I HAVEN’T HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH ANYONE YET) AND IT SEEM LIKE GREAT THING TO DO TO KEEP THEIR CNS RESPONSIVE IN SEASON.
ANY TOUGHTS?
THANKS FOR REPLY
Are you training track athletes or athletes for another sport? I actually get less soreness from deep squats than partials and deep squats give me more of a ham/glute hit as well. I have noticed though at half squats seem to mimic the set position in the blocks (If that makes sense)
I also find full squats better bang for the buck. 3 buried reps in full squats has the same bar travel as 6 reps in half squats plus you don’t need as much weight on the bar to get the same effect.
Where do you train your athletes in Toronto?
Cheers,
Chris
No reason to yell 
If they are consistently squatting, then then they should not get sore with deep or high squatting. If not, then they will get sore either way. I’m not sure why you would want to do higher squats as the season progressed…one of the advantages of deep squatting is the acquisition and maintanence of hip power (which is very important for high quality sprinting.) By lessening the depth of the squat, you have less hip involvement. Not exactly what I would want as the season progresses. In addition, it is difficult to adjust the poundages based on depth - is a 405 full squat equal to a 495 half squat?
I guess if all you are looking for is CNS stimulation, then higher-than-parallel squats may make sense…
Personally, I do what I call ‘touch-and-go’ squats. I set a box at a level that is somewhat below parallel (12 or 14" high for me - see, I have found a use for those Reebok aerobic steps!) I squat down until I just barely touch the box, then explode up. This means that I always have a consistent depth and can’t cheat when I go heavier. Note that this is different from the Westside box squats since I simply use the box as a target for proper depth and don’t actually sit down on the box.
Right on the money:)
CNS stimulation is what I was aiming for.I understand principles behind deep squating I just dont see them as applicable to in season training due to low CNS response.How deep do you go anyway in a knee bend when playing basketball for example.It is more 100 and up fast twitch seaquence of the bend that makes you explosive anyways.Program I mentioned when various dedrees of squating was adopted in Eastern Europe and used also in Cuba. I remeber my coach pointing that out for me and reffering to Xavie Sotomayor (I misspelled I know:) and his workout routine.
Guys you make me seem that I am giving away secret because this stuff really works:) I’d like to get Charlie on this.
And as for that you don’t get sore I find that big BS ,excuse me. Microtears will occur like it or not because the hip range of movement in deep squats is differnt than anything you would do in training or normal life setting.Even if you do not notice them they are there , preventing you from reaching your full speed and awaiting to tear in to the injurie and overtraining.
For non juiced athletes, and there is not to many of them now:)
in season stick with higher than 100 degrees squats and low stepups explosive, Olympic Lifts and Complex training .
My 2 cents as you say here in North America.
Peace:)
Chris,
I work from Oakville, just outside of Toronto where I have been living for past 4 years.
Since I have started my bussiness I am dealing successifuly with young hockey players, golfers, boxers, soccer players as well.Still longing to work in track as I have been in Pole Vault my self but I am going to have to do that on my own time as track parents are not as whealty as the hockey ones unfortunately.
E mail me at btnl@icesports and I’ll send you the URL of my Sports Medicine and Training Centre.
Regards,
Dan
I won’t speak for Charlie, but I know that he has previously said that he had Ben squat to parallel or slightly below so as to increase hip involvement. The only time he had Ben do partial squats was to work around an injury.
And as for that you don’t get sore I find that big BS ,excuse me.
Sorry, but it’s true…if I am consistently squatting, then I don’t get sore from session to session. Of course, I don’t train to failure and I keep the reps low and the sets high.
Microtears will occur like it or not because the hip range of movement in deep squats is differnt than anything you would do in training or normal life setting.Even if you do not notice them they are there , preventing you from reaching your full speed and awaiting to tear in to the injurie and overtraining.
SAID “Specific Adaptations to Imposed Demands” Why would the hips and squats be any different than the quads with partial squats? Certainly if I don’t regularly squat deep, then I will have problems when I transition, but if this is what I do as a normal part of my training, then I won’t have any problems. I would venture that olympic lifters would disagree with your points about deep squatting!
stick with higher than 100 degrees squats and low stepups explosive, Olympic Lifts and Complex training .
My 2 cents as you say here in North America.
Peace:)
Do you mean the power versions of the Olympic lifts? Because the full OL are traditionally performed with a full squat! Don’t even get me started on complex training…
Thanx for your systematic answer. I did in deed mean power versions of the Olympic lifts not full and it would be interesting to hear on what you have to add on complex training.
Peace:)
Not to be an asshole, but when you first posted you stated that you were stomped and in need of some help. However from your other posts, and the various mentions of your knowledge of Eastern block secrets, it seems to me that your real intention was to show off your knowledge (of what you taught was superior info). When you got opinons opposed to your own you did not accept them, or even consider them as potentially true. If you were truly looking for some help, you would have been more open to suggestions made by the forum participants (many of whom are very successfull coaches). It looks to me as if you were looking for a validation of your opinions and when you did not get it you became defensive.
To address your point…
It’s true that soreness is primarily a result of microtrauma. In fact it is the result of the excessive defensive mechanism following the “creation” of micro-trauma. As you get more used to training, your body learn to modulate the inflamatory response following training stimulation. As a result you do not get as sore once you have accumulated a certain training experience: you still get the same muscle micro-trauma from training, but the protective response is no longer excessive, thus the DOMS is of a much lower magnitude. On the other hand, if you change exercises or significantly increase the training load, the response to micro-trauma once again becomes excessive thus soreness reappear. This is why large volume fluctuations, drastic exercises changes and detraining periods should be avoided.
In you squat all-year long, and if you do not use drastic volume fluctuations you should not have any excessive soreness caused by full squatting; if you do it is due either to malnutrition or excessive volume. However changing from a full to a 1/2 to a 1/4 squat may increase soreness due to two factors:
-
The load used is greater in 1/2 and 1/4 squats and the quadriceps play a greater relative role than in a full squat (because of different load repartition), as a result it is quite easy to “over-traumatize” the quads.
-
If you do not include additional glutes and hamstring work when you switch to 1/4 squats, you may selectively detrain those muscles. Meaning that you may suffer from a decrease in performance. It also means that once you switch back to full squatting, the amount of soreness you get will be large because of the relative detrained state of the glutes and hams.
Dan thanks for the info. I am moving to Oakville next year actually Right now I am training out of UofT athletic centre (York U previous to that)
When you mention the power movements of OLY lifts I assume you mean the hangclean and hangsnatch?
The powerclean and powersnatch both use a pretty low position at the start of the lifts. (more acute than 100 degrees)
I personally do not find much in the way of gains from the hangclean and hangsnatch. They are explosive but I find plyos and resisted/weighted sprints much more beneficial in comparision.
What analysis has been done comparing the stresses/microtearing of the full squat with relatively lighter loads to the half squat with heavier loads?
What are your thoughts on the regular grip dead/vs the snatch grip dead?
Cheers,
Chris
Re: Complex Training
Check out: http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=2398&highlight=complex+training
Or perhaps we should reopen David W’s thread with a few questions on complex training: http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=53&highlight=complex+training
I would of thought if you full squated why go to partial squats. Unless injured was the reason.
I squat just above parallel (Hamstrings are parallel) because of lower back and flexibility issue. I am working on flexibility but scared of back hurting.
I have found partial squat are only good for ego and in fact I get sorer from them then I do when I do my normal squats.
Hi Christian,
Thank you for your sincere oppinion on my forum behaviour and knowledgable comment on my" 100 degrees squats dillema".
Looking forward reading your new book.
Is it possible to provide me with url’s of some of your articles on the net.I’d like to know more on you approach to speed strength training and recovery (natural that is).
Regards,
Dan
When doing Deep squats, does pushing the hips back prevent knee problems? Knee problems is the one thing I have not seen addressed, What are your thoughts?