Concentrated Loading and RFD

Sports science IS in synch with the theoretical stance that you have taken. All the points that you have made are valid. What you must take on board is the fact that your body reacts to stimulus in ways that you would never have known had it not been for sports science and science. Example, heat shock proteins are released everytime we exercise. The laws of thermodynamics affect muscle as well. Heat shock proteins are a consequence of training. To counteract the damage caused by the process REGENERATION MUST be applied at ALL times. The mammalian organism only knows how to deal with heat shock in one way, the remodelling of fast fiber to slow fiber. The down regulating of the pituitary, thyroid, testes and thymus to a lower level of hormonal output. One way to counteract the effect is NOT to avoid contrast showers and massage and nutritional regeneration, but to apply it at ALL times; thats the only efficient way. Regardless of “just enough” load being applied the laws of thermodynamics still affect the organism your body still generates heat; heat shock proteins are STILL produced at optimal or excessive loads. You must still apply regeneration even if you percieve a training load to be efficient.

based on the reference posted by pakewi, I was referring more to the actual running part. In that respect, I am not clear as to which of the two is bound to cause more trouble, although I agree with your statement that intensity is less likely to cause such issues, if carefully managed. Having said that, I too would be interested in TC’s question, if time permits! Thanks!

As to the regeneration debate, I don’t think pakewi is in disagreement with the application of any form of regeneration; perhaps the application of minimum regeneration indicates an optimum stimulus. In order even for this to be efficient, I would apply regeneration, as needed and regardless.

Human nature again, I guess… :slight_smile:

This is now going beyound my current knowledge of physiology but I want to hear more about this. How would contrast showers and massage affect HSPs? Even with mininal loading will the HPA-axis be downregulated? Does OW show this?

Hey Guys/Gals,

   So the argument that [i]if not training a certain quality (such as maximal strength)  for 2-3 weeks or so, one is detraining [/i] is not true in the long run.  This reminds me of Jason Ferrugia's article on T-nation (Death of Conjugate Method).  He likes staying away from maximal weights for recovery reasons (in certain periods such as GPP and Hypertrophy Phase I think...) especially for athletes who already do sprints/plyos, and he argues that at the end, one'll still get stronger even though he did not train maximal strength.


You know how your body reacts because of experience/trial and error, and that is coaching long before science gets involved and tries to validate what you already know works. That said, science can be useful in helping you to see the limits of value and when you are approaching them. Another point you brought up is the effect of volume having a potential “stimulus effect” along with intensity- useful as long as they are seperated by session AND by percentages. Another arguement for tempo, core, and other low intensity work??

An extremely clear way to express my position,thank you Nik!

Martn76,very detailed answer,and many possible further considerations on the rise!

One of my points being:we cannot endure OVER training and thrashing athletes by implementing largely suboptimal programs based mostly on rather randomly established generalizations,and then going back to therapy over and over to compensate for our assumptions…

Yes, the old theory of digging a hole for yourself and then trying to get out of it at the last minute is doomed to failure (or Britain, as we’ve seen)

I sort of agree with that. I think that max effort is definately not needed all the time, but I would even argue that it is not necessarily needed during a ‘max strength’ phase. Max effort takes alot out of the athlete and might not even be superior to the repetition method(assuming that the repetition method is using a high enough % of 1rm) With the repetition method, one can have a higher frequency of training. This could mean more overall volume in the training week(being able to squat 3x a week versus 2 if you are counting West side’s dynamic effort). Plus I think it allows for more work in other areas such as speed strength, max V, etc. Which means, when utilizing the repetition method, it is alot easier to manipulate the various stressors of the CNS. If a mesocycle is designed to be focused on other areas besides max strength, one can more easily change the intensity and/or volume with the repetition method. This way you never entirely get away from strength work but it is not such a stressor that it is impossible to focus on other areas.

I think max effort is very useful for powerlifters, as learning to strain against max weights is a skill and the only way to learn that skill is by doing max effort work.

I guess it depends on how you define a max str phase. Singles or 2s and 3s etc. And how long you intends to stay in the str phase.

Yeah I agree. I was thinking more along the lines of what westside does for max str. development.(I am assuming that was what Jason F. was refering to but I didn’t get to read the article very closely so I could be off) Again, it obviously works for powerlifters as their results speak for themselves, but for other athletes, other methods might be more optimal.

I could get slighted here as being “irrelevant”, but while we’re on the subject of survival and science…
When hunting, The Cheetah rarely runs above 50% speed, it prefers not too, even if it means passing up on a “possible” meal, and hoping a slow animal comes along for an easier meal/chase.It’s c.n.s can take days to recover from an all out sprint.
I just thought it was interesting that the fastest land animal has a sense of knowing when to hold back, mind you, it should do, having very spacific survival based behaviour. Ofcourse it’s physiology & metabolism is somewhat differant to ours.

It also has to worry about what happens AFTER the kill. Lions love to follow them, and while the Cheetah eats, sneak up and either take the prey, or if the Cheetah is distracted, eat the prey and the Cheetah too.
Sounds like wild kingdoms answer to athletes and agents!

Can you expand on the higlighted above? Any studies supporting “CNS depletion in Cheetah’s after all out,single sprint”???

They might adopt strategies as cited,and they even might need different rests after different efforts,resulting in the outmost efficiency survival wise,but assuming the reason dictating all these phenomena to take place reside in CNS pool depletion without supporting sources seems to me a bit of a Pindaric jump!

Ischemia for example, can be prevented by contrast showers and massage. Ischemia can cause the unwanted muscle adaptations that we strive to avoid by applying regen. Even with minimal loading WITHOUT proper nutrition the HPA-axis WILL downregulate. Its shocking. Exercise induced hypogonadism due to HPA downregulation COULD occur…your worst nightmare as a power athlete… or any athlete.

I can not say for sure, but the OW would probably be a leading indicator I suppose. There probably is a profile of HRV readings and omega complex profiles that would suggest the process had started and can be stopped simply by complete rest nutrition and regen. Chronic fatigue is on the same continuum of overreaching and overtraining. There are brainwave readings that can be taken to diagnose the profile of a chronically fatigued individual, so I suppose that the OW should be able to diagnose this. It should do so as it strives to flag up these states in athletes.

OW produces a number of information which can lead to undertsand possible processes in the organism which are not directly measured and monitored by the technology,but can be desumed by monitoring adaptive responses in dynamics over time.
Some indicators related to the above may be HRV spectrum analysis,aerobic potential,Omega brain waves potential at rest per se,and after load in monitoring the regulatory mechanism response on the hypothalamus-hypophysis axis.

Pakewi, how effective has the OW been in detecting what you have been looking for?

Always, finding what you’re already looking for is easier than running across what may end up being the answer.

Sorry I don’t understand; are you suggesting that overtraining can lead to restrictions in blood flow to certain areas? If the latter is true would blood pressure readings help provide indications of when you are reaching an overtrained state. My understanding was that massage does not promote blood flow? Furthermore the temperatures used in most contrasts are insufficient to cause blood flow restrictions.

VERY effective,to the point we found out that what we were looking for probably just didn’t exist in reality!

that’s what I’m getting at. We are trying to define things with poor language tools though at least we have the concepts to look at.