Brett, how do you improve your speed for 60m without doing repeat 60’s?
I have summarized in a previous post recently on this thread defining speed, speed endurance, specific and special endurance as a review for everyone reading this who asks similar questions about
Why am I not faster?
Brett, you have given me lots of data but just because you are doing S to L, that does not mean you will get away with avoiding the routine performance of including 60m reps and 100’s or 120’s or on occasion 150’s.
On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the most fit, how would you rank your overall fitness? ( it’s the base by which all other variables of your training will improve from)
If tempo plays any role at all it’s to ensure fitness. I don’t care what the debate is, I see lazy all the time and it provides excellent and easy assurance of fitness.
Do people believe that speed will be improved by doing repeat 10’s and 20’s and 30’s? Up to a point yes they will. But correct me if I am wrong as you’ve told us nothing about any of your longer training? speed endurance as one example.
" I do 3 x 5 bench and squat" = you do this all the time? LOL.
… this tells me nothing about how strong you are.
Oh you said you have never been stronger?
THat’s good but maybe that’s because you are leaving your speed at the track and not prioritizing the speed part of the training.
NO, I am not charlie but I don’t need to be.
What I know for sure is our eyes can tell us the most as coaches.
It’s clear you have a great deal of knowledge but many things including a few I have commented on don’t equal method to give you CONSISTENT SPEED RESULTS.
by the way, relaxing is often a function of feeling confident about what you are doing for training. If you are not feeling good about your training it’s difficult to allow things happen as they should.
Are you certain that you are doing all the things you need to do at the track to ensure the quality of your speed training is as good as possible all of the time?
My comment about your lifting was directed towards cycling how you lift at what time of year not just lifting for strength all of the time. Lifting will always compete with your speed and that’s why it’s worth noting.
My warm up was one full hour as an athlete. I still do most of the components of my training warm up, then I do strides even if it’s on the treadmill and then I do 3 sets of 10 or 15 meters in the gym or outside, take 3 to 5 minutes and see if I am able to do another set or 2 more sets of 3 runs over 10 to 15 m. IF I still feel great after this which usually is near one full hour I carefully choose a few lifts. Bench, squats or lunges. I’ll do 6 reps of bench, take a 3 or 4 min break and then go do a walking lunge over 20m. Then I will take 3 or 4 minutes again and ask myself am I better to leave now or what more if anything am I able to do and still feel great? As soon as you or I perceive fatigue, it’s already too long of a session… We have already dipped a bit too low past our baseline and it’s going to take more than 48 hours to restore our best training self. ( this is training 101 and it’s worth making comments about repeatedly)
this is a tiny example of what I am able to do now but I will tell you I am using the same principles of training that i have always followed. I hope it’s helpful.
Yeah idk. I think that my emphasis on acceleration work is because I seem to run a lot differently out of the blocks than from a standing start. I simply cannot generate the same speed without having the aggressive angles present, and so I decided to not have 60m repeats in the program. But yeah your point seems valid since a lot of people have been known to do repeat 60s. Michael Johnson and Clyde Hart did them, Pietro Mennea, and I’m pretty sure John Smith as well as guys like Borzov did them too so it is interesting to see that kind of work being found commonplace among different locations and eras for that matter. So yeah I have been reconsidering this type of work.
Strength progression is classical block style. Started out 8-10 reps during GPP, 6-8 reps early SPP, and late SPP sets of 3-5 reps. To answer your question regarding general fitness I would rate myself an 8 out of 10. Doing only 2 speed sessions a week allows me to consistently do 4-5 tempo sessions in a week for a total volume around 6-8km, and as I’ve already mentioned previously my lifting has certainly been consistent. I am sure that 60m repeats would add to specific fitness, as well as provide another opportunity to improve relaxation since the acceleration limit is present. So again thank you for bringing that up.
[b]
Brett,
Everyone runs differently out of the blocks then from a standing start.
*The cost of performing block starts with all your runs is significant. Yes, you need to practice block starts but it needs to be added as an intense aspect of your training and counted accordingly.
(* cost of performing block starts vs standing starts= when I use the term ‘cost’ I am referring to the physical cost which includes muscular as well as CNS cost. You might think of starts as a high intensity exercise. We know it’s not medium intensity which according to Charlie’s methods is a waste of time and for sure we know block starts are NOT low intensity.)
If I were doing block starts I would do so after my hour warm up as part of the speed session. The block starts were chosen to go as the first exercise. Why? Because it requires you to be at your best, your freshest and sharpest. This is true for every second of sprinting that you perform and it’s especially true for starts because it’s an explosive, powerful movement.[/b]
What you mentioned about confidence is really important too. I think the bottom line is that confidence shifts things to the hind-brain (good for speed). On the opposite end of the spectrum would be self-consciousness, or doubt, and that would bring a shift towards the fore-brain (bad for speed).
This is exactly the case for many aspects of learning
“I simply cannot generate the same speed without having the aggressive angles present,”
Well guess what? You need to change this. Or do you? Do we debate it? Do we go to one of the sites who sells what ever and ask the question and get a 5 billion word article that supports what ever is being sold and advertised? You can do that if you want but I assure you that if you have X amount of energy and you waste a good portion of that on your start, how the heck do you expect to get faster? Forget about doing 10’s or 60’s etc as you have LEFT YOUR SPEED potential in the starting blocks. ( quite literally)
The angles performed in a standing start are the very angles you need to perform and REPEAT to achieve your potential.
Likely you have not yet been shown how to perform a standing start. Maybe you have and can’t yet repeat it or you feel you are getting too light or sore? Any of these scenarios are normal.
Look, I’m not saying these things to prove I’m right. Obviously I am pointing out an error in myself and seeking help for it. I did not come here to debate. But yeah I agree that I should be doing standing starts. If I can improve that it should improve other forms of acceleration. I suppose it could be said that blocks essentially do some of the work for you in a sense, as the angle of the pedals orient your force more horizontally. Without blocks you have to find a way to align the proper direction of forces yourself. One of the other differences is the deeper angles achieved in blocks (around 90-100 degrees on the first two steps). Without them, you need to coordinate these deep angles yourself. Necessary skills of acceleration that I will work on.
Angie,
How would you model the intensity of a block start compared to an individual fast sprint, perhaps 95%, over say 40m. I aim for something like 200m of hi intensity work based around say 5x40m.
If executing block position starts I aim for say 3x20 from blocks + 2x40 from standing. In other words block + 20m equals 40m from standing. I like 20m because it is long enough to model the full block position start+much of the acceleration phase.
The other thing i sometimes do is what i call push offs from block position. This is a lower intensity start + about 8 strides all in relaxed mode. Purely to model body angles.
Does this make sense ?
Brett,
Who said there was a debate?
The proof of the sprinting is on the track right? And you are either getting what you need and want or not. Part of the reason standing starts are useful is to strengthen the specific movement and angles in the crouched position needed to maintain the angles of sprinting. If you aren’t able to hold a crouch position to perform standing starts, how to you routinely train this area? The position of a crouched start will assist in the development of low, mid and upper back as well as the hip region ( needed for speed work) and ligament strength all over body. The groin, the hip and ankle angles are included in the mix and all while not costing you the same as block work. We need to do block work but we need to be aware that we need higher volumes of repetitive speed work is necessary.
The other aspect of the block work is while specificity is important for block work as in speed work, there are many other aspects of training that will go into improving your start out side of reps of block work.
There is a minimum and maximum amount to “get” each time you perform block starts. And if we are looking to conserve or prioritize our energies ( we are always looking to do this if and when we create and follow a methodical training plan) we need to know that there is only so much to gain in one session from block work. Doing 4 x as many blocks does not mean you get 4 x the gain.
The General Preparation Phase video talks about the role medicine ball throws and hills and start drills play in developing the angles are you referring to. I know many believe or feel drills are silly but drills are meant to replicate and break down motions that will be put together ( hopefully) automatically when we are given the chance to practice speed work.
I think we need to treat the block work separate and different from speed work. It’s one of the most intense exercises of the speed and sprinting learning curve without any doubt. Few are able to maximally benefit from the start without a masterful training program to build the needed strength and power which only gets developed by the most elite sprinters over a long career. In other words you have to try and take what you can get out of each area of a given repetition or distance and try not to over indulge any one training variable. Do you for example work on reaction times? Everyone can work on this aspect of the start and the physical cost no where nears that of getting into the blocks and performing a start.
My view of doing the this equals that is reasonable but I don’t think it’s applicable for what you are trying to achieve.
Keep the blocks work isolated and treat it accordingly. Try 3 block starts over 10m with more than a 1min rest and take your time and before you move to speed work take 3 or more minutes depending on how good those starts were and then you will be fresh to move ahead and perform the next part of your session.
We know how intense block work is. For that reason I would not do the starts out of the blocks over 20m as you run the risk of turning your session or part of it into medium work. Or progress your block starts. First one is a start from the blocks. If it’s good then repeat it or perhaps move to 10 meters. Maybe you do another over 10 meters but maybe it’s good enough for that day and time to do speed. Try to resist going over and over and over the start as I see so many people do and then you get tired or frustrated and or pissed off and how do you think that is going to turn out?
I understand the part where you want to model the full block position and acceleration phase but we will not always get all things ( we want and need) from each exercise. Part of the value of drills is rote work for muscular development as well as neurological development.
All work, all the time needs to be performed relaxed. I know everyone knows this but we need to remind everyone and practice this all the time. The habits off the track will dictate relaxation as well preparation of the training plan, choice of coaching etc.
Performing a low intensity start? If and when it’s done well it’s not going to be low intensity. Even when all you are doing is pushing off the blocks over a few meters, it’s still work of the highest intensity.
I believe one key issue for many reading the forums and watching the videos is they have not “felt” what it’s like to perform certain basic sprinting tasks with the tools or circumstances which are ideal.
There are many smart people on this forum and have been over the years but sometimes you have to be able to do something a certain way in order to understand. Sport minded people can be very thoughtful and extremely intelligent and methodical but it’s useful to have some experience around the best as the nuance of performing speed work isn’t taught or practiced much.
Tim and Marion were just off the chart talented and it was interesting how many things they still did a certain way and ultimately were so fast and so beyond everyone else, they could get away with it.
Ben never questioned his ability to do more work and when it felt it was enough he stopped.
No matter what level you are at, don’t under estimate the value of less is often more and few want to hear about rest and regeneration play a pivotal role, it’s necessary to point out you need to make sure you’ve got the right amount of stimulus in the right areas to regenerate from. If you are not getting the work done on the track all the regeneration in the world won’t give you speed. There is no free ride when it comes to the mastery of speed training.
How about a blog on ADG of Canada.
Switched up Coaches a few times and ultimately ended up winning a Gold in the 2020 (2021) OLY Games in the 200 Meters along with 2 more Medals. He’s at 6 now correct? Virtually everyone one here said it was a bad move. He did have success the year before his hamstring pull the week of the WCs that one year, yes, but the man showed great patience and resilience, mental toughness(?), etc What a story!
Sydney M. set 2 WRs and cleaned up her technique big time in less than one year.
We already kinda knew the JAM sprint team would return do to…well, it’s a “fair game” pretty much.
Those Italians looked really relaxed in the Relay. Very well done. It seems that they have hit those speeds before in training.
Balance, What is ADG of Canada? LOL
I think Mr. De Grasse has done a good job with his life on and off the track. It was a slippery slope for him for a bit and he managed to turn it around.
Don’t forget he has had the benefit of those before him showing him the way and advising him and in the end he has been wise, careful and allowed himself to grow as person and athlete. He’s incredibly talented and he’s grateful and it appears as though he understands that surrounding oneself with the right people is an essential aspect of long term development and sustainability. People and athletes need time to succeed and fail over time and they need mentorship from those before them to help them make the ride a bit smoother.
Don’t fix what is not broken. Wise words.
As I comment on Brett or Oldbloke it’s easy for my comments to appear as right or wrong. I have opinions based on my spot and vision and it might fit for someone and might not.
I remember being in a foreign country with Charlie and commenting to him regarding the coaching he was advised to “help” with.
I said to him…
"Where do you start? …They are doing so many things wrong and what about this and what about that and why didn’t you comment on this or that? "
You can’t overwhelm coaches or athletes or people when and if you are looking to coach or train them. You need to prioritize what matters most and gradually address what you are able given what time you have.
De Grasse had tremendous leadership from Tony and Colene early on but ultimately he had to find his way and thankfully he has and good for him.
Andre got a chance to fail, succeed and fail again and he took full advantage of this process.
I have been and am a good coach as I had initial success young in many sports but failed miserably and then got to try again. The end results don’t matter as much. Well, we all know they do but there will only be ONE Olympic Champion. But I have seen and met and watched the Olympic champions. And when we wish to be something and wish or want to emulate he or she, let us not forget what we can’t see. So why not enjoy the process and enjoy the lessons or LEARN to take the lessons and turn them into what you need and want.
A main driver of those who fail is to understand or win somehow someplace else or differently. Or you accept failure and potentially you are bitter.
I am potentially giving advice but I don’t see it like that. I am giving information based on me and what I have seen and learned and experienced. I promote people to read and experience the information themselves and get out there and fail and learn but don’t bullshit yourself.
De Grasse has empathy, humility and heart that shines through outside of the big WIN. He appears to grasp family, longevity and the largest picture of all which is where does he invision himself 5, 10, 15 years and 25 years down the road.
This information is only as good as one is prepared to face their own game in their own lane and their own race. By the end I was my worst enemy for a variety of reasons. Most of them are MY reasons. Most people get in their own way and need to blame someone.
Crazy is doing the exact same thing over and over again and hoping, wishing and expecting something to change. ( I think Einstein said this…)
ADG is playing Chess at a high level. Many are not.
Great posts.