HOWS COULD ANYONE RUN FAST OF SUCH A PROGRAM?
I Think They Got Great Chemists At Baylor
The key is right there in the article - baylor recuirts sprint type 400m guys and then trains the endurance qualities specific to the event. MJ, Warnier, Darold, these guys all had the 200m speed in place before coming to baylor.
Thatâs because youâre stupid.
Couts was successful with the programme for a while but he was an 800m guy âŚ
Thanks for the baseless speculation :mad:
Exactly! Wariner and Williamson both came to Baylor as sub-21sec. sprinters out of high school. MJ was simply very undeveloped.
The program that is at the start of this thread is not really what they do. That schedule is actually from the 1970âs. There is also more fast, short sprinting in the program now, particularly during the mid to late season. No itâs not what Charlie would prescribe, but Baylor doesnât even try to produce 100-200-110HH athletes. Also note that the Hungarians that came to Waco both improved dramatically, though the male did get injured.
Couts is a great case in point. He came in as 21.5, 45.7 athlete. Clearly his event specific endurance was highly developed and his room for growth in the 400 was limited. Mark Collins in the 1970âs is a very similar case in point.
Disclaimer: I do not subscribe to the Baylor methodology
And your one of the great modern minds on sprinting physiology! 
maybe you should be running the sydney uni sports science department, if anyone without a degree could do it and i am sure it is you.
I also was told that their program differed from that article especially with regards to speed work. There seems to be a lot of question on this thread as to what they actually do since others here say it is as written(or at least very similar). Couts is one I had been thinking of recently. He seemed to get nothing from the program but injuries. This is not an attempted indictment of their system since it has obviously worked extremely well for a number of athletes(major understatement?). Though Johnson would appear to be the exception,(which he has throughout his career) since he came in with 21.3 200 speed but it seems as though those who donât come in with already exceptional speed will not flourish in such a program.
MJ was simply undeveloped as he trained only 2-3 hours a week in high school. So 21.38 is really very impressive.
From direct observation and discussion with both MJ and Coach Hart I can tell you that the schedule at the start of this thread is not what they do now or have done since the late 1980âs. I think that it first saw the light of day in 1982 and it is very similar to some schedule that I have from the mid-1970âs.
Again from direct observation I can tell you that yes there is more speed related work than this schedule portrays, but not alot by the standards of this board. They donât even put their spikes on for much of it, using lightweight trainiers instead.
Truthfully I think that we have talked the Baylor/MJ/Wariner topic to death. You can buy Coach Hartâs video over the internet, and you can get an updated version of the training schedules from OzTrack as well. That will give you a 95-99% factual picture of what they do there.
Speculation that they do more speed oriented modalities are unwarranted.
I was not stating that they used MORE modalities, only that they did more speed work than that article suggested. So I suppose that the speculation is, in fact, warranted and really not even speculation since you comfirmed this assertion. Compared to the speed volumes advocated by many on this board, including myself, it might not be much. I made no such comparison, only stating that they did more speed work than was stated in the article and not concluding anything in terms of differences or similarties between Hartâs and Charlieâs program. It may seem to you that this and other related topics have been âtalked to deathâ and that is certainly an opinion you are entitled to and may seem to be so since you are obviously somewhat or completely on the inside but for the rest of us we are trying to get to the facts which you have certainly helped with. These are relatively small threads compared to those devoted to many other topics on this board. Thanks for your help, though, in helping us to understand their program.
You are parsing what I have said to fit your needs.
What I really wish to clarify is that the genesis of this thread is not an accurate representation of what MJ, et al, do. For most anyone reading what I have said, this would be clear. More importantly I have given sources where one can find a more accurate portrayal of the Baylor âsystem.â
Said system is neither complicated or secretive, yet there are 4-5 threads related to the topic on these boards. If they are short it may be for precisely the reasons that I have stated. My reason for saying that we had âtalked it to deathâ because while I make every effort to clarify what they do, I find that I am repeating myself.
As for being on the inside, all I can say is that Coach Hart is a very cordial man, who at least in the 1980âs was very willing to help people out. I have not spoken with him directly since 2001 but he seemed very much unchanged. As for MJ, I guess that I should deem myself fortunate that he talks to me at all based on how Iâve seen him react to others.
In any case, if you or anyone else think that there is something related to Baylor 400 training that we havenât covered, I am more than willing to try to answer. There are other coaches out there producing great 400m athletes. I would certainly like to get a perspective on what they do. 
You did respond specifically to what I had said so I feel as though I am doing nothing to âfit my needsâ . You even agreed that their program was not exactly as written in the article(especially with regards to actual speed work) which is what I said very early in the thread (though a number of people said it was as written) and then repeated it later. I think we are âgenerallyâ in agreement. I donât particularly like the system since so much of seems to consist of speed endurance, special endurance and intensive tempo and not so much speed. Still, I must admit that it has worked extremely well for a number of individuals and therefore many here, including myself can learn from it. I donât ascribe to any magic associated with the system, I just like to investigate the elements of it, etc. When describing the done to death scenario, I understand that you feel like and undoubtedly are repeating yourself to explain and provide information but keep in mind that not everyone reads all of your posts regarding the subject. So many topics have been covered ad nauseum on this site as a quick use of the search feature here will demonstrate.
Hereâs my perspective on the Baylor system for what it is worth. Iâve tried it with junior level athletes and had little success. They werenât particualry fast, so they didnât get any benefit. I was trained in a similar manner and it flattened me out. I should have used my head. I have since taken portions of the system and used it with a high level 400m hurdler and it worked much better as he was innately faster. He was also used to be trained in this manner and really liked it.
One of the advantages of what they do at Baylor is that the training does not take much time per session. I think that with weights and morning runs MJ rarely trained more than 12 hours a week. If you have limited time this may be an approach worth.
There are two aspects Coach Hartâs approach that I really do like. One is that he wants all of his guys to run as balanced a race a possible in terms of pace. The other, which is related to this, is that he prepares his guys for multiple rounds of competition. Itâs his belief that if the athlete goes into deficit in terms of lactate in early round, he will not win a championship. Wariner is obviously a great student.
Thanks for the info. Again, I think we were essentially saying the same things and in agreement. With regards to their weight training, is a large portion of it done on machines(you had mentioned Hammer for MJ) or do they do quite a bit of free weight training, even though they do no olympic lifts? By the way AthleticsCoach, where are you located?
I donât know the particulars of their weight training other than it was VERY general. Lots of 6-10 (maybe 12) reps in the 65-80% range. As the OzTrack postings mentioned, no Olympics or squats. No maximum strength phase, and I donât think that they ever go below 6 reps except in testing, but donât hold me to that. As schools change strenght coaches, programs have tendency to vary and what MJ did may not be what Wariner + Williamson do at present. It is an area that I know that Coach Hart leaves to others, or at least that is my impression.
From what I heard that article in one of the muscle mags back in 2000 was absolute crapâŚcompletely made-up.
I do know that MJ used the Hammer Strength machine as a post grad when he couldnât get to Waco. Remember that he lived in Dallas.
Check your in box regarding the other question.
Yeah, that workout was written(I believe) by a former student of one of Americaâs leading researchers on periodization/strength training. I recognized the workout immediately in MD because I had done the same workout including identical sequence, etc.
I hadnât been following this thread closely as weâve been through this topic before BUT I saw a vicious exchange between two member with no references to training at all and I removed the posts. I like a good arguement as well as the next guy- as you know. Look, there are plenty of sites that thrive on trashing people- this isnât one of them. Letâs stick to training arguements that ultimately help each other.
[QUOTE=AthleticsCoach]
-That bloody beeper is another constant aspect of their training!
QUOTE]
Maybe a stupid question - but is there a rule against wearing a beeper in competition? I guess there must be - but please could somebody give more specific information on that?
[quote=âAUT_71â]
Actually, I donât know what the rule is on that- anybody know?