I understand that however all the suggestions that Jimmay is getting is geared towards which particular phase?
If weekly mileage is at 30mpw, you are NOT doing a long run.
3-5 miles that is like what 30:00 tops for elite athletes…
The basis of elite 800m training would be speed, if that was your logic.
I would strongly suggest doing a speed day like the speed days for 100m athletes.
Like 30-50 meter @ 95-100% with (2-3:00/5:00 recovery)
Maybe finish with something between 100-200m at 400m race pace.
Week in and week out.
The speed workouts you suggest are more special speed endurance workouts (which are needed) but won’t develop the 400m speed you need to race effectively.
My definition of long runs is anything at 30:00+. Elite athletes go EASY on the 3-5 mile a.m. runs -app. 8min miles.
When did running more than 30:00min become speed logic? What is your definition of long runs 10miles? 15miles? 20miles? We’re not talking about the marathon/half marathon here. 
It’s all relative! Furthermore, If you read my complete statement you would see my LOGIC is based on multi-pace training, including speed and steady runs!!!
Look, if you are going to refute my observations of elite 800m training, try coming up with a better argument.
Btw,
I would strongly suggest doing a speed day like the speed days for 100m athletes.
You talk about my speed logic, and turn around recommend that 800m athletes train like a 100m athletes. Man, you are really a piece of work :rolleyes:
Fair enough…
There is some information that is missing. Jimmay wants to break 2:00 but has a personal best of 62 seconds for the 400. The post was meant as much for him as it was for the charliefrancis.com community. He needs to increase his basic speed. From what Jimmay has listed as speed workouts, I am not sure he sees the difference between lactate workout and speed training. I just want him to see that I feel that both would be beneficial for him. That is my opinion any way.
There are many ways to train for the 800m. You can certainly debate the necessity of a long run if you follow a mult-tier approach as you have outlined. While I agree the long run is a relative term to the distance you are training towards, I would be uncomfortable defining a long run of being only 3-5 miles in length with tempo sessions that total 4000m of volume. But like you say it is all relative, you have the Snells who regularily ran 20 plus miles at a time and you have the Coes who did 5-6 miles runs as recovery runs and then you most certainly have others you never run more than 5 miles at a time. And the length of the long run of course would be vary throughout the year. Good luck with the training, Jimmay.
I see where you’re coming from…
Yes, In Jimmay’s case, he can benefit greatly from speed work. As long as he doesn’t lose his conditioning/endurance in the process of pursuing it, I’m in agreement. Later…
Nice improvement! Are you still working with that athlete?
The time was recorded in 1994. I started coaching the guy after we met warm weather training. I think his PB was 1:55.8 before he came to me but he was always injured pursuing a sprint-based 800m schedule. He had trouble coping with rounds and often fell into a hole after 600m.
I coached the guy by phone and letter (no emails then!) as we lived over 300 miles apart. It wasn’t ideal but after Christmas 93 I had him doing more endurance based work and he decimated his PB almost every week during the 94 season.
In hindsight, I made a couple of mistakes then:
a) I should have passed him on to the best possible coach within his travelling distance
b) If I did keep him on (as I did) I shouldn’t have been greedy and stepped up the mileage again
During the 94-95 winter he picked up some niggles and I think became a bit dispirited training so hard on his own and decided - quite rightly - to train with a group nearby.
We still keep in touch and I am pleased to say he eventually did a 1:49 point something.
There you have it, warts and all…
Impressive! It goes to show that good advice can help -even when more than 300 miles away.
I know what you mean, when running fast, instinct tells you to continue working speed…until the opposite starts happening…you plateau or get slower.
All the best to you…
Great topic guys…
I am in a similar boat as well. I run the 800 and the 400 (in that order). I ran distance through most of high school minus my senior year where i ran half and half, distance and sprints (my best season by far). Due to my distance background, i think that my top speed is holding my times (since i hit a 200 pr as a split for a 400).
What do you guys think of this training split:
Mon Speed
interval range (50m to 150m)
Tues
tempo ~4000m (morning)
and
20-30 min run (evening)
Wed SE
interval range (300-600)
Thur
tempo ~4000m
and
20-30 min run (evening)
Fri
Short SE
(150-300m)
Sat
Distance workouts
i.e. split runs, longer than 30 min runs
Any suggestions?
Ok guys heres a program that OHSTF made as a basic outline tell me what you opinions are on it.
As a sample:
M: Short speed ex. 6xflying 30s with (3:00) + 1-2 x 100m at 400m pace
T: Tempo 100-200m repeats building to 4000m volume for the session
W: Speed endurance ex. 2x600m @ Race pace (25:00 rest) or Split-speed endurance workouts ex. 2 sets of 3x200 (60 seconds rest) faster than race pace
TH: See Tuesday
F: On alternate weeks: 10-16x200m @ 34-35 (200m jog) then the next week 3x200m @ 29-28-27 (5:00)
Sa: See Tuesday
S: See Tuesday or off every other week maybe
I’m also going to take Scarfaces idea and run 2-3 miles in the morning but only on tempo days at first and its going to be slow.
So what does every one think of this.
Jimmay-Why don’t you list your goals and stats that you gave me?
Maybe put down your time frame for wanting to accomplish these goals along with your training background. The more info you can give these guys the better the feedback that you will get. There are no magic workouts that work for everyone. The guys will have to match workouts according to your background, athletic level, goals, time frame, and facilities.
Jimmay-You might want to use this a road map for something to build towards. It sounds like you have just started training and the above workouts might be too much, too soon. Use the overall format, but progressively build towards those levels.
Examples: (If you just started training)
Mondays: maybe just do the flying 30s at first
Tempo days: maybe just start at 2000-3000m of tempo
Wednesdays: for special end starters maybe 400s instead of the 600s
Maybe hold off on the morning runs for 4-6 weeks until you can comfortable handle the one-a-days then gradually add the morning runs
Patience will be the key in avoiding overtraining.
I will let the other guys take over.
Yeah i’ve been training for about 2-3 years now. I’m in pretty good shape, i play soccer and have been running about 4.5 miles starting since summer before that, i did speed training based on charlies principles and brought my forty from 4.9 to 4.6. I’d like to run about a 2:00 half mile is my goal. I timed my 400 once and i got 62 seconds but that was after i ran 4.5 miles earlier that day and just got done some light bball and then got timed. I dont really have good facilities except for a treadmill and i might go to a training facility during the winter 2 times a week.
i’m going to do this, if anyone has any other suggestions just let me know.
thanks