Canadian Ascending Descending Training

Expert Discussion Strength Training
41

I’m a little confused about something. I remember Poliquin said not to lift with two different methods in the same session (i.e. power and limit strength for different exercises). Also, remember on elitefts Q&A, I think Dave Tate saying not to do DE & ME together. Then I see Kenn & CT having some variation of that (Kenn- DE Lower & ME upper on same day; CT with 3 power/limit strength and 1 power/limit strength).

–So that doesn’t confuse the nervous system?

Would it be more optimal to approach using the tier system:
–how I had planned with a 5 week pendulum (hyper, strength, power, strength, hyper) with the same lifts for a 5 week block with methods changing weekly
–or how 101pro had it where each tier was a method (all aspects hit daily) instead of a prioritized type of lift for T, U, & L.

42

After our earlier discussion I had to go and purchase Joe Kenn’s Book. Awesome read.

My initial application had been based on the article that I read at his site and the training logs at elitefts. After reading his book I think that in a beginning/intermediate level athlete your pendulum (delldell) would probably be optimal (for the majority of people).

once the athlete is more advanced then an approach incorporating the rotation of strength qualities in the same workout would be best, if applying the tier system.

In his elite tier Joe rotates emphasis of the body T-L-U based on the day but he also assigns a strength quality for each tier

Example of a 3x3 speed tier

Day 1
Tier 1 - Total - DE
Tier 2 - Lower - ME
Tier 3 - Upper - REP

Day2
Tier 1 - Lower - DE
Tier 2 - Upper - ME
Tier 3 - Total - REP

Day 3
Tier 1 - Upper - DE
Tier 2 - Total - ME
Tier 3 - Lower - Rep

In a strength tier Tier 1 becomes ME, Tier 2 becomes DE, Tier 3 is the same

I personally think that once at the elite level the strength qualities/methods used could be changed ie., Not necessarily just using DE/ME/REP but you could incorporate Something a little more speed strength oriented like DE/ME/PLYO or Ballistic. These adjustments could be made depending on the athlete.

BTW his book is really good and well worth the money.

43

The idea that optimal results are achieved when limit and speed strength are trained seperately is questionable. Infact research by Verkhoshansky suggests the opposite. Certainly performing snatches and squats in one training session does not appear to hamper elite Olympic lifters.

Medvedyev recommends that all none elite will achieve optimal results when the speed strength exercise is performed first (this follows on from the weights after speed philosophy). An exception is when very low volumes are performed in the limit strength exercise to prime the nervous system (so called ‘complex’ training).

Effectively therefore, DESCENDING training is a poor choice. This does not mean however that training EMPHASIS cannot shift in different meso cycles. To stress limit strength, intensity (and volume) in speed strength exercises is reduced to maintenance levels…

44

For those wanting to optimise performance in the OLs…

Each lift should be trained at least twice per week. Since optimal results are achieved when a session emphasises either the clean or snatch, four sessions per week are recommended. To prevent CNS overload, at an intermediate level (without AS assistance), a days recovery should be taken every third day. Limit and speed strength therefore CANNOT be trained seperately.

Sprinters could split speed and limit strength but only at the expense of a track session. i.e:

M. Speed, Plyo, Dynamic lifts
T. Limit lifts
W. Tempo
T. Speed, Plyo, Dynamic lifts
F. Limit lifts
S. Tempo
S. Rest

45

Chris T,
How would you relate/adjust the information in your quote below, to a LJ/TJ/HJ “lower body intensive” athlete, that needs event technique training and recovery from same, in addition to strength training?

Dave K.

46

Just a quick question for CT about your weightliftiing pendulum. Are these still full body workouts 3x a week or more? Also are you planning an article on this like the bodybuilding one?

47

I think he said that he prefers 3x a week whole body for athletes. At least, that’s what I’m doing right now.

48

Yes, I am now using a 3 days a week, whole body schedule with my athletes. I find that at their level they absolutely cannot handle more work without overstressing the CNS. I am even considering lowering the frequency to two whole body workouts per week.

I do use 1-2 restorative/“beach” sessions per week which do not tax the CNS. I find that most athletes feel that they are “missing out” if their frequency of work is low. So by using a planned restorative session during the week they have the impression of doing more work. But it’s work that is not taxing on the system.

49

I am very interested in how you use the Athletic pendulaum with your version of the Tier system. This is something I have been playing with for a few weeks.

Thanks
adam SInger

50

CT,

So how do you organize the various methods (E,I,C), found in your Methods book, into a 3x/week whole body training program?

I imagine you’d use a template like that found in your different destinations, then cycle through Conc, Ecc, Iso. Hitting each type of exercise with each method. Picking the type of conc, Ecc, Iso based on goal.

Ex:
Power
Upper Push:
Day 1 Concentric Dynamic Effort Bench
Day 2 Eccentric Plyo Push Up
Day 3 Isometric Ballistic Pin Press

Lower
Day 1 Eccentric Depth Jump
Day 2 Isometric Ballistic Pin Pull Deadlift
Day 3 Concentric Dynamic Effort Squat

Upper Pull (Total body)
Day 1 Isometric Ballistic Pin Row
Day 2 Concentric Dynamic Effort Row
Day 3 Overspeed Chin

What would a template for a typical week look like with the various methods?

51

Were you talking to me, because I’m trying that out right now. I talk about it in another thread, “in need of guidance.”

You could also do it like was mentioned earlier on this thread where each tier is not only the type of lift but method of lift.

101pro has read the book and could help you more I’m sure.

CT–do you believe it’s okay to mix limit strength with dynamic strength exercises for the same body part? I saw you do this on the t-mag powerlifting pendulum, but Dave Tate often says not to do this.

52

All questions will be answered when they run my athletic pendulum article. Probably in 2-3 weeks.

Let’s just say that I use a different contractile emphasis each training day:

Day 1 = Concentric max effort
Day 2 = Eccentric and/or isometric emphasis
Day 3 = Ballistic and/or explosive emphasis

53

I must have this article ASAP.LOL

54

I was expecting your athletic pendulum article to be posted last friday at t-mag. Will it be out this coming friday? I’m curious on how it looks like.

55

Probably not, they only run my articles every 2-3 weeks to avoid making it the Thibaudeau-Mag!

In fact, my next article is the continuation of this week’s article. I felt that I needed to go back to more mainstream articles for a short while. Not everybody is ready for advanced and unorthodox training articles.

56

COuld we just have the basic framework. Some of us can not wait another 5 weeks.LOL

Adam Signer

57

Oh well. I might as well finish reading CT’s book and work on it. Joe kenn’s book gave me some ideas as well as other articles and posts by CT on how to design “athetic” pendulum.

58

He’s already given a sample workout under that format recently in “another question for CT.” I think it’s for those that are pretty advanced though, just a basic tier would work fine for me.

59

The updated version of my new book will have a complete 12 weeks athletic plan based on what I’m doing right now. The book is good to go, only need to have it reformated and printed out.

60

Rupert,

Will people who have already bought CT’s book be able to get the updated book for free or will there be an additional fee? I’ll most likely get it eaither way but thought I would ask.

Thanks,

Kbattis