Barry Ross Is Back!!!!

[Nikoluski]

@mortac8

So people from ‘infinitely slow’ to ‘a top guy’ can successfully base their program on a few deadlifts, some auto regulated sprints and calling it a day when everyone else is training with 2x or 3x the volume/training time? Yes, I am asking seriously.

I agree with pakewi’s comment above -a concept either holds true across board or lies with no shame Based on Barry’s posts and rationale and Ken’s case study(-ies), the former seems to be the case. I understand though eroszag’s point, too. The question perhaps we should ask is how these few deadlifts and auto regulated sprints can be successfully adapted to the varying demands of sprinters across the board. Barry’s experience with the female athlete can help here!

I would also be very interested to see his thoughts on another issue Charlie raised a few posts back (if I get it right), i.e., how the differences in upper body between males and females are handled under such a scheme and those between upper and lower body within a female body.

[eroszag]

What I mean is just that:How the complete program worked ona top guy…Felix cannot compete, since you were just in cherge for strenght part (please correct me if I’m wrong).

[ASheaff]

@Bear

Using our algorithm based training allows us to predict the max speed of any runner (with greater than 97% accuracy) from very short distances to runs of 4 min duration (distance over time for the longer runs). We can then give each individual a specific sprint workout without over training them. When they exceed the time to complete a repeat run, they stop running. We don’t exceed 10 repeats (we know that they have improved if they are able to do this so we retest max speed) and if they cannot make the time by the 2nd attempt, we stop them. Using this methodolgy, rather than guessing, significantly reduces the propensity to over-train.

Our workouts, specifically time under load, is significantly shorter than any other I’ve seen, for both weightroom and on the track, and it’s not by accident.
Regardless of the weight, 5x2 reps (which we rarely use) would take about 22 minutes to complete. Of that time, 20 minutes is resting (sitting down). The max set of 10 repeats would take about 36 minutes of which 34 is resting (sitting down).

Not a grueling workout by any stretch of the imagination.

Bear-

How does the duration of the (track) workload for a 400m or 800m athlete differ from that of a 100m athlete. Is the time under load larger due to larger repetition distances, or do you tend to keep the repetition distances short for events of longer duration?

Additionally, have you found the lifting protocol effective for all lifts (regardless of whether they impact sprint performance or not)? So would a similar regimen work for improving maximal strength in a weighted pull-up, or is there something about the deadlift that responds particularly to this training?

Thank you.

[mortac8]

@pakewi

For one,waiting for Bear:“infinitely slow” people and “a top guy” are still all HUMANS,if we are still willing to recognize and accept it,after trying our best to set as many differences we could for as long as we can remember.

Yes we’re all humans… All very much the same when it comes down to it. Is that why Clyde Hart’s cookie cutter program works so well? Yet we are also so very different…

[Charlie_Francis]

@mortac8

I am curious about the efficacy of deadlifts only weight training for sprinting in regards to a sprinter with a significant training history including ‘common’ weight training. What is your opinion on high level sprinters that train 16+ hours per week? Would your system be
more effective for them while requiring only ~7hours per week of training time?

I have a few new 400m girls and I probably will put them on your weights system (seriously). I would love for them to cut 6-7sec off their time ( not serious).

The example of this approach I can think of off-hand was Gerrard Mach, who used very low numbers of the deads with a run-out between reps and very long breaks. He kept the bar and plates out by the track- hopefully not ON the track, or someone would get a shock stepping into a depressions after a few heavy drops!!
This was his only heavy lift from what I ever saw.

[mortac8]

@Charlie_Francis

The example of this approach I can think of off-hand was Gerrard Mach, who used very low numbers of the deads with a run-out between reps and very long breaks. He kept the bar and plates out by the track- hopefully not ON the track, or someone would get a shock stepping into a depressions after a few heavy drops!!
This was his only heavy lift from what I ever saw.

Man I am so confused

[Goose232]

The deadlift is over rated. Pavel tsatsouline brought back its popularity for ‘athletic’ training.
More conveniant, safer, works more muscles etc…

However, here are some not so great points about the deadlift. Some teenage distance runner at the beginning of this thread slightly improved their flying 75m, when the bulk of the improvement came from the wind assistance on the track that day, and probably the depth jumps introduced to their program. I’ve experianced greater improvement in as little as a few weaks, from alternative programs. if the deadlift was so great, tell me why duane ladeajo (spelling?) is not the fastest man in the world. He deadlifted about 350 kg, and is tall, with the body of a sprinter. he was a european 400m champion in his prime, and I doubt he ever ran faster than 10.50 for 100m. The amount of energy some of you guys are gonna waste on the deadlift suring this next off-season. Push your dead up another 100 pounds and see your 60m pb improve by 0.04 seconds. Way to go. It’s horse shit.

Also, you don’t have to do only isometric contractions to improve isometric strength.

Concentric, isometric and eccentric tensions have all been proven to improve each type of tension strength. E.g concentric contractions top gear, (sprint bycicle) have been known to significantly improve 1 rep squat strength, in all phases of the lift, including the lowering phase.

You’ve got more chance of improving your speed with an ‘alternative’ freak method,
e;g massive increase in volume of lower body weight reps per weak, followed by a dramatic cut back, and peak toward 1 rep max set at the end of the cycle. Or even dropping lower body weights from program altogether and doing two power speed workouts per day, such as stationary drill at home (every day) instead of the gym session of crappy deadlifts or squats. This ad nuaseam 3 rep deadlift stuff is not gonna cut it. Whilst you’re in the off-season you’ve got to get a bit freaky with your methods if you want a significant improvement.
All we read on other websites, is a load of ‘exciting’ introduction, followed by an anti-climatic; ‘lets do a few deadlifts’ type stuff.
I’ve had some freaky gains, (and sometimes losses) by pushing the boat out, and experimenting with ‘alternative methods.’ Not this 3 x 3 reps, a few days a weak rubbish.
If you’ve got a chance of a significant gain or significant loss in speed, if you push the boat out. None of us want the loss, so most are allways playing safe with anecdotal training methods. It sucks. I’m in the luxurious position of not having and not wanting a coach (for now), so I can try anything.

[RyanH]

Bear actually states how Pavel’s Power to the People shaped the design of his program.

[Charlie_Francis]

@Goose232

You’ve got more chance of improving your speed with an ‘alternative’ freak method,
e;g MASSIVE increase in volume of lower body weight reps per weak, followed by a dramatic cut back, and peak toward 1 rep max set at the end of the cycle. Or even DROPPING lower body weights from program altogether and doing two power speed workouts per day, such as stationary drill at home (every day) instead of the gym session of crappy deadlifts or squats. Whilst you’re in the off-season you’ve got to get a bit FREAKY with your methods if you want a significant improvement.
now), so I can try anything.

I cover this in detail in several of the downloads and in CFTS.
Whenever you make a radical change, you get muscle stiffness, which removes that portion of the musculature from continued direct exposure to the work provided and greatly increases the risk of injury. You can make big gains in single components if you want to, but speed is a combination of factors. This is exactly why I kept all components in place almost all the time and simply varied the amounts and made smooth transitions from phases to phase.

[martn76]

@Sharmer

I do find your posts show a level of intellect that is sometimes absent. I may not agree with your findings but certain questions do arise. You state that rep volumes don’t exceed 20 per session, repeated twice a week. Do you periodise this? Do you increase rep ranges to 5?

How do you integrate speed work with max weights & plyometric training without overtraining?

That is very disrespectful. If you don’t agree with Bear’s methods then ok but, please no intelligence insults…

[Charlie_Francis]

@martn76

That is very disrespectful. If you don’t agree with Bear’s methods then ok but, please no intelligence insults…

He’s already said he meant it the other way around- one answer didn’t hold up to the usual high level. A misunderstanding.

[duxx]

@Charlie_Francis

I cover this in detail in several of the downloads and in CFTS.
Whenever you make a radical change, you get muscle stiffness, which removes that portion of the musculature from continued direct exposure to the work provided and greatly increases the risk of injury. You can make big gains in single components if you want to, but speed is a combination of factors. This is exactly why I kept all components in place almost all the time and simply varied the amounts and made smooth transitions from phases to phase.

Exactly what I want to try to do in soccer, but the bastards won’t listen to me Out of topic BTW!

[lkh]

@Charlie_Francis

The example of this approach I can think of off-hand was Gerrard Mach, who used very low numbers of the deads with a run-out between reps and very long breaks. He kept the bar and plates out by the track- hopefully not ON the track, or someone would get a shock stepping into a depressions after a few heavy drops!!
This was his only heavy lift from what I ever saw.

Do you really think Ben would have squatted 2X6X600, benched 2X10X352 and run 9.79 with the level of stimulus in Bear’s program?

Also, a comment from David Woodhouse, from another thread about Bear’s program:

@David_W

This is slightly off track but I recall a month or so ago reading an article in Athletics Weekly discussing Allyson’s lifting regime and it’s debt to Pavel T. I remember remarking at the time that the philosophy seemed incredibly simplistic.

Anyone who’s been involved with Powerlifting will know that, for intermediate lifters and above, deadlifting more than once per week above 80% will very quickly lead to overtraining.

This being the case, is the program being dabated here, with DL twice a week well above 80%, even appropriate for a high schaool athlete?

[Jstu3565]

Hi Barry, could you explain more about the algorithm you use for speed work? Not necessarily the actual algorithm itself but the factors used to come up with the predetermined number of sprints. Does the drop off % change depending on the workout and if so what determines this?

Also, could you explain your views on acceleration, particularly early acceleration(0-30), and how/if this differs from top speed running according the the spring mass model of running? Thanks,

[eroszag]

Goose, where have your read Ladejo Dlifting 350kg???
BTW, on the elitetrack forum, Mike makes some very good points on Barry’s program.
Sometimes I see some common points changed around with other fancy names, a la BD hammer…

[sprinterouge]

@lkh

Also, a comment from David Woodhouse, from another thread about Bear’s program:
This being the case, is the program being dabated here, with DL twice a week well above 80%, even appropriate for a high schaool athlete?

Despite appreciating most of what DW writes, I shy away from blank statements.

I have used myself and have people use a program with twice a week DLing over 80% (plus one session at or below 60%) with very good max strength improvements and no burnout whatsoever.

The volume and buffer are the key, IMO.

[duxx]

@sprinterouge

Despite appreciating most of what DW writes, I shy away from blank statements.

I have used myself and have people use a program with twice a week DLing over 80% (plus one session at or below 60%) with very good max strength improvements and no burnout whatsoever.

The volume and buffer are the key, IMO.

I am just re-reading Practical Programming book, and Rippetoe says that DL volume should be limited to one heavy set only, without sets ‘across’ …

[Ken_Jakalski]

Neither the simplicty of the protocol nor the methodology of cycling swayed me in my initial discussions with Dr. Weyand about Barry’s approach. Perhaps that’s why I was focused on choosing the ‘least likely candidate’ for improvement in meters-per-second for my “Barry Project.”

After Dr. Weyand’s '02 seminar here in Lisle, coaches who grasped the notion of ground support force as Dr. Weyand had explained the concept left the day in pursuit of what I referred to as the “Holy Grail” of ground support force: a program of strength/plyo work that would best improve the average mass specific force applied to the running surface to oppose gravity.

At the same time, miles away on the West coast, Barry was basically using the same term “Holy Grail” in relation to a protocol he had established based upon his grasp of the study.

To many, his descriptions and articles seem to sugggest that 1) this is the only way to train, 2) that no other programs would lead to similar gains, and 3) that everyone who didn’t follow the research was way off base.

Although Barry’s response to this analysis might be, “yes, yes, and yes,” the reality is that, as a result of actively pursuing these issues with the researchers themselves, he changed his whole approach to strength training relative to the 2000 JAP study, as well as subsequent research, which pointed out that greater application of mass specific force appears to be the mechanical means by which athletes achieve faster top end speeds.

Regarding discussion on the merits or disadvantages of the protocol, I’ll refer to something I heard just this morning at a learning asessment conference:

“All models are false, but some are useful.”

and

“Take what’s out there and apply it to your own situation.”

Inevitably, proponents or detractors are left with another unique obersvation from my assessment seminar:

“Are we willing to die on the hill for this battle”?

For my situation, I like the program, but then again I’m not at risk of dying on the hill. I’ll probably retire or get fired before that happens!

[dr.sprint]

posted by Charlie (somewhere)
Whenever you make a radical change, you get muscle stiffness, which removes that portion of the musculature from continued direct exposure to the work provided and greatly increases the risk of injury.

Hey Charlie, what if you went hard at recovery that week, say double the amount, wouldnt stretching, massage, and whirlpool prevent stiffness. What I mean is what if you watched the tonus of the muscle very closely.

[TMSSF]

@sprinterouge

Despite appreciating most of what DW writes, I shy away from blank statements.

I have used myself and have people use a program with twice a week DLing over 80% (plus one session at or below 60%) with very good max strength improvements and no burnout whatsoever.

The volume and buffer are the key, IMO.

Completely agree with that. I implemented the deadlift protocol with an advanced developmental sprinter last year and had very good results from it. There were other lifts, as well as plyos, integrated in the strength session.

We used the algorithm model to implement a S-L track workout (similar in scope to Vanc '04) and after 2 months (off-season), this athlete was able to improve his 30m (4.2 to 3.9) and 150m (16.5 to 15.1) TT.

This fall, I’ve found that incorporating cleans (w. shrugs/hi-pulls, etc) with the deadlift (3x3) routine seems to enhance a young female hurdler’s ability to attack the takeoff and re-accel phases as well…

No doubt that there may be other exercises that would work as well. But for certain athletes in our group these routines have worked better, in the short term, than traditional functional training.