Pioneer,
Very well articulated. There are always people who just like to argue. I personally don’t care what gets said. I know that perhaps people don’t like their paradigm shifted, but it is necessary sometimes. Trust me, Ian King and Poliquin would tell you that you need to think about what you say. Charlie as well, but not so bluntly. I have done what you said, I go to the source to learn information first hand. I can tell you that people are much more likely to espouse their opinion a little more aggresively than perhaps if we were in a seminar setting. If it’s one thing I know well, it’s bodycomp. I have competed in 19 bodybuilding shows and trained more than 200 competitors for shows. My people are usually some of the leanest in show. It doesn’t come easy. Most guys start dieting for a show 16-20 weeks out. Most of these are around 10-12% bodyfat going in. It literally takes constant macro nutrient cycling and reduction along with a lot of cardio and 6 days per week of lifting. Some lose 30-50 lbs in search of that “ripped look”. It is draining to say the least. One of the shows I did was after spring ball my sophomore year of college. I was full bore diet through spring ball and tired and in the word’s of my coach “looking like I needed a sandwich”. I caught heavy shit for tripping on a wheel route out of the back field. Coach was pissed. It went something like “g***#@$!%^@%$# F**&^#%# bodybuilding”. He told me my skiiny ass better weigh 225 come fall. I told him don’t stress. My whole point was, I went from strong athletic guy to a “weak kneed turd” acording to my coach. While eating a great diet, my leaness directly decreased my performance alot. The simple science is, you need bodyfat to fuel sustained fat. Body can only store a small amount of glycogen. 2+ hour practices burn that off halfway through. No bodyfat, no energy. Big problem.
oops, meant effort not fat. Got lost writing War and Peace
Elite cyclists are also extremely lean.
There is very little bodyfat on them even at the start of each stage race. How do they get round the problem of having very little bodyfat but managing to get through 6 hour races day in day out, which takes incredible energy?.
you can argue till your blue in the face, my experience tells me you are incorrect. As has been stated ad nauseum, there are no easy paths to being lean. Obviously it is a big advantage to weigh 130 lbs to ride a bike for hours. Anyone would be lean if they rode Tour De France distances.They also eat and ingest carbs and glycerol during the race. Pretty hard to do that in middle of game. I try to be professional and perhaps encourage you to think a little more deeply about what you say, but it is obvious that you know more than many of us. No insult to you, but I Bow out of this discussion as I believe it is a turning into a quagmire.
I believe it turned back after the 2nd and 3rd posts…
And my experience tells me your incorrect.
Its all about adaptation & adaptation is a very slow process, but very achievable. Its not playing football at 180 lbs & then draining your weight to 156, 3 weeks down the line.
Even in the bodybuilding world, seeing Ronnie Coleman at a show, he doesn’t look drained (mentally), the guy comes alive when he peaks. Maybe you just didn’t have the experience or knowledge to know when enough was enough, seems that way.
You CAN have very little bodyfat & have lots of energy, hence the elite cyclist. Again, its months/years of adaptation. Not stuffing your face, then cutting erratically. That is where you will get into problems. I know I’m right, I’ve certainly been there.
Your making it all too complex for yourselves.
Speed, nothing in life comes easy, for anybody. Life is ours & for some its bodybuilding
If bodybuilders peak for a show at 10-12% bodyfat, please hold a thought for the cyclist.
Thats 10-12% to start. 3-4% at finish to clarify another obviously misunderstood point.
Obviously, that is tremendous improvement.
Any idea as to the rates of change with some of them? That is, how much does the progress slow as time moves on?
Most hit 6-7% relatively quickly. We always say, you should be ready to walk on stage 2-3 weeks out or you are behind. I was talking to one of my former protege’s and was showing him this thread and he was laughing his butt off. He said “anyone who think it’s easy to manage being that lean, has never been that lean”. You have to work hard those last 6-8 weeks to get that last 2% off. I can tell you, the one year I did a 20 weeks diet. I started at 13%@ 247lbs. I ate 9 times per day every 2 hours. It was a chore. A month in, I was 10%@263 lbs. 12 week later, 4 % @ 248 lbs. It was getting up at 3:30 a.m., doing 45 mins of cardio, home shower eat. First client 5 a.m. Train clients til 12, lift, 30 more mins cardio. Train clients 3 til 10, 30 more mins cardio. Go home, sleep, back up 3:30 am. By no means easy. Won the whole show though so I guess it was worth it.
Did I put a thumbs down on my own post? I don’t even know ho to do that. Haha
No offense but bodybuilding isnt running or lifting to get strong. So lean is part of the event but has nothing to do with sport other than bodybuilding.
Mauro is one of the best when I comes to this sort of thing, he has the diet, the training and the background as one of the top MD’s out there for elite everything. Plus he did it himself. Check out his sites. He worked with me from September till December before the Olympics trials and I am about as hard core as they come and I didnt have the energy to properly train on his diet. Finally Charlie said forget it. What is the point.
If I want to look good I can do it with Mauros help for sure.
If I want to run fast I will get Charlie’s help and look good anyway.
you can’t look good and hope to run fast.
In high level athletics performance first and aesthetics second.
Maybe I am missing the point.
that is exactly what this round about thread has been about. I essentially said the same thing. No offense, but bodybuilders are not athletes. I just took up competing so I wouldn’t turn into a fat ex football player. Some took up track or other activities so as not to sit around. Unless you are a super lean genetic mutant, getting too lean hurts performance. I agree with you Ange. WHen I diet super hard, I fell like crap. Like I said, that’s on north of 3000 calories per day. If I altered my macro nutrients, I woul never get as lean, but I would have energy. It’s a catch 22 for most of us.
speedcoach, maybe I misunderstood, but you were consuming 3000 calories per day during a lean out phase?
speedcoach is a big dude! no joke 
somewhere there abouts. I was eating roughly 4500 per day trying to get mass up and I think I peaked out the one year at 280 lbs. I am 5’9" so I guess I was kinda big. I hated eating that much. If I cut calories to like 3000, I could lose 25 lbs in like 5-6 weeks without doing anything different. Now metabolism is not what it used to be. Fatter than I am comfortable with right now. Skipping too many meals and replacing them with protein bars and such. Guess I picked up my wifes baby weight. Haha
I 2nd that emotion!
Thanks for the response.
I guess I was the one who brought bodybuilding into this because I was trying to use that as an example of how much more difficult it becomes to reach the very lowest levels of bodyfat.
So so true. I have said many times, I used to be a great athlete til I got into bodybuilding. It took away a lot of athleticism. Ange, you always look good and move like a cat. I remember you demonstrating starts in Toronto with Ian and Charlie and was blown away. You’re physique was a product of the training to get fast, leaness was a consequence, in bodybuilding, it’s get lean at all costs. That was my point ot Race radio. Peformance is #1, #2, #3, etc. Looking great is number #20.
a few years ago Sports Illustrated had a pictorial article showing the bodies of a range of elite athletes which was interesting, most were in no way reflective of being geared towards BBing .