Correct, but you can’t teack a beginner to kick at a hundred miles per hour if its his first class! The progression must be gradually kicking faster; otherwise, you don’t have the control to kick where you want to kick. I actually won a karate tournament bc the twkando guy could not keep his control and kept hitting me. The tournament was a non contact one; however, you had to get within an inch of your opponent to score a point. I scored one point but got 2 more bc my opponent had no control.
First off the mechanics of the pull for the clean and the snatch are significantly different from each other, yet both are markedly diffent from a conv DL.
Consider the angles at the knee, at the hip/low back, hand spacing, and bar trajectory.
During the first pull of the clean and snatch the lifter will typically make every effort to have the knees extend at the same rate as the hips so as to create favorable leverages for the transition into the second pull where a shitload of force is exerted.
During the conv DL,however, most lifters will extend at the knees at a faster rate then at the hips (this creates more favorable leverages for pulling big ass weights, albeit much slower), which is why the last thing to lock out during a DL is the hips.
This comparison is most notable when either performing or observing a limit clean pull. As the load becomes heavier the clean pull starts looking more like a conv DL.
Again, there is a very fine line between SPP and something which won’t do squat for developing competitive skill motor potential.
Lastly, don’t forget about what I stated in reference to the athletes level of preparedness. What will do wonders for a novice will do jack for a master of sport. Conversely, what will benefit a master of sport, will likely jack up a novice. I believe the latter is an example of what westerners (especially football S&C coaches) are masters of.
I guess we could argue on this till the cows come home. I agree it doesn’t perfectly replicate the skill at higher speeds but I do think there is some transfer. At the beginner level I think there is much transfer.
Interesting, I am trying to replicate my deadlift to the first pull of the clean. I guess when I start doing heavier wts my technique will change? Oh well, I am only doing %50 of my 1RM for my deadlift right now, hoping that this will transfer over to correct technique in the clean.
Is there an active kick-out in the B skips or does it happen naturally, because of the hip flexion?
What’s the first pull in a clean? (I’m being sarcastic)
I don’t believe in an intentionally slow “first” pull and then exploding when the bar contacts your thigh. There is a double knee bend, but it’s not necessary to actively pursuit it, it happens naturally. I try to pull as fast as possible, it just so happens it doesn’t move very fast when it comes off the floor. Thoughts? The only cue I really worry about is keeping my arms long.
My ass is much lower when I start a clean than a deadlift. I try to think like I’m doing a leg press against the ground, I’m not sure If this means I’m extending equally at the hips and knees or not. Also I have never actively shrugged my shoulders, this is why I dislike high pulls. This movement should be used to pull yourself under the bar, not raise the bar (although it may help to stall it’s descent).
The leverages/mechanics at work during the 1st pull are unfavorable, much unlike the leverages at work during the initiation of the second pull. Accordingly, a violent tug from the floor is in essence, waisted energy that would be much more optimally left in reserve for the more favorable mechanical position during the second pull. Additionally, the effort to generate max force during the 1st pull is likely to alter, thereby negatively affect, the trajectory of the bar as it approaches the transition phase.
You may not be thinking about optimal bar trajectory at this point, but as you advance as a lifter you will come to appreciate the significance of this factor.
I am no where near a highly qualified lifter, (in fact I only perform derivatives of the lifts for fun when my back is too jacked to DL or GM heavy) though I am able to snatch grip pull (when I am NOT 100% healthy) upwards of 170 kilos to just below my chest and I can tell you that if I am not right on when I transition to the 2nd pull, my second pull will suck and the bar will not travel nearly as high.
This is corroborated in much translated material from the Soviets.
I agree that the double knee bend is not something that must be a forebrain activity, however, I feel that it is important to raise the awareness of novice lifters by explaining the reasoning and incredible significance behind it’s instance.
Look at any video of a world class weightlifter (especially in slow mo) and you will observe a violent shrug which serves to catipult the barbell upwards at the tail end of the second pull.
Don’t discount the value of the shrug. This section of the pull is in essence a power shrug. This particular movement is very favorable for generating a tremendous amount of force.
Perform this simple field experiment:
A) perform a high pull from the hang. try and pull the bar as high as possible without the shrug at the end
B) repeat, and this time finish the second pull with a violent shrug
You will observe that the movement which is fnished with a shrug will launch the barbell significantly higher
The higher you can pull the bar the more weight you can use and the more time you have to get under it.
While I agree with you one this point, it is debateable. Some elite lifters like to so call, “Grip It and Rip It”.
One reason for this is to be as explosive right of the get go so that the speed of the bar is high throughout the movement; as opposed, to %80 of the movement. Another reason is that some people dislike the bottom position bc of the height (tall people) or lack of dynamic flexibility to get into that position. So they want to spend the least amount of time down there. I could be wrong but this is what I was told.
Like I said, I agree with you on this point for the reasons you mentioned.
It shouldn’t be a forebrain activity during the lift, but, as you say, raising awareness of beginners will help them a lot, as they come to a “ready to jump” position and this helps so much the lift.
Opinions?
O.K. Herb, let us take this debate in a different but similar direction. If you do not want to fuck up a sprinters mechanics through drills then how would you fix mechanical flaws at high speed? Will you be able to notice the flaws? I know CF has talked about listening to Ben’s feet as he sprinted and CF could tell if the feet where making to much sound in the amortization phase. I think you can use this technique with plyo’s as well.
Are they any other techniques in noticing sprinting flaws? Also, once you notice these flaws how do you correct them?
BTW, good job in posting the animated drills! I was just curious as to the usage of the drills and I guess curiosity with me turns everything into a debate.
I’m no slouch, actually I feel my progress over just six months time is nothing short of remarkable. Especially since I am self-taught. I’m around 1.5 BW C&J and a little over BW for power snatch. I am unable to full snatch properly due to balance and SPP core strength I am becoming more proficient at OH squats which should sure up both issues.
The most apllicable articles here are:
Value of pulling exercises 1&2 and Essential Components of technique 2. I Encourage anyone interested in Olympic Lifting to read the articles on this site.
James, I look forward to discussing these with you, if you’re game.
I feel that the upper body should only be used to pull the lifter under the bar, and not to “top off” the pull. It is more efficient to drop under as soon as possible, than try for full extension, which must come before the shrug. Otherwise the shrug would move the bar away from the lifter, not a good thing.
Another possible topic for discussion, is the value of power versions vs. full squat versions for athletes. Assuming you’re a motor genius like myself and technique is not an issue.
James, I feel that the pulling action is of secondary importance to the ability to drop under quickly. The drop under is also one of the more beneficial aspects of performing the lift, because of the rapid switch from relaxation to peak tension (what DB calls REA method). This is also why you would need to perfect your drop snatch before you could snatch anything close to your best pull.
Well first, the snatch pull, if peformed for a 1RM, will always exceed the squat snatch regardless of the classification of the lifter.
The problem with pulls is that they can be difficult to qualify unless you set up bungy cords/bands , sticks, etc to try and get the barbell to touch in order to accurately guage pull heighth.
Additionally, lifters may tend to use their arms when going for a max pull, which of course is a mistake.
Agree that the lifter must be able to pull themselves under the bar as fast as possible, however, the ability to get under the bar in the first place is a function of how high the bar is when it reaches it’s pinnacle.
Think of the height of the pull as speed reserve.
The higher you can max pull (with good technique), the more weight you can squat clean/squat snatch (assuming of course that all other facets of technique/strength/power in other aspects of weightlifting are being trained in parallel).
The higher you can pull a load (in excess of what you are able to squat clean/squat snatch) , the greater the chances of you successfully getting yourself under a new pr in the squat clean/squat snatch.
In my view, the ability to rapidly pull yourself under the bar is a far easier skill to acquire than the strength and power necessary to increase pulling strength/power.
I agree that triple extension is often not achieved when lifting max loads in the classical lifts. Although this is also a function of pulling style. If you notice, the Bulgarians (among others) tend to pull the bar all the way to their lower pelvic region before they ‘finish’ the second pull.
Rezazadeh (Iran) and Dobrev (Bulgaria) are two lifters who comes to mind who make contact with the barbell on their lower pelvic region. If you view their performances in Athens you will notice that both of them are much closer to reaching full hip extension (if not all the way there) than other lifters who don’t make contact as high on their body.
Bottom line is that I don’t care how fast you can drop into the full squat position; if the bar isn’t high enough you wont’ make the lift.
If you consider this I am sure that you will agree that as a lifter progresses through multi year development the increase in the two lift total comes not as a result of he/she developing their ability to ‘pull under’, but rather from their increase in strength and power.
I am well familiar with the material presented on the dynamic eleiko site. I am, however, in the middle of working on some projects for my site. Accordingly, if you wish to discuss this further it would be a great help to me if we can discuss this on my site. Other wise, best of luck with you training.
I have been following this thread with great interest. Many of you have posted some great comments on the OL’s.
James,
Just a couple thoughts. I think this discussion would be great for your site but it seems to me that the site and it’s members/readers are not very fond of the OL’s and can see it turning into a very one sided discussion. Looking at many of the posts on the site i would say the majority of the posts have anti-OL sentiments.
As an aside i am in the process of writing a small article( a list actually) of the OL variations and will be sending it to you first. On this list I have actually omitted both the classical versions as well as the power versions of the clean and snatch( 1. because of the belief that some coaches have that the OL’s are hard to teach and 2. That the snatch can be dangerous to the shoulders)
but instead expanded on the many variations of pulls. As you can imagine this is a very extensive list and i have taken many from both Siff in supertraining as well as Medevedev book as well as many I have come up with on my own and from other coaches. I have no idea when i will be done as its seems I add to this list everyday. But i will sent it to you at your site when it is ready. The reason i made this list is to show coaches that it’s not just the “powerclean and powersnatch”, that there are literally hundreds of variations that exist that a coach has at his disposal to help an athlete develop special strengths. i think it was you friend “62” who says we need to start thinking outside the box!!! He is so right!! Well this is my version.
Also i will still be sending you those tapes i promised but along with that i will be sending you some home video of a few of my athletes that i think you will enjoy. take care.
I feel confident speaking for Tom and Buddy on this particular topic. We are on a crusade to educate the S&C world on the following:
Olympic weightlifting is an incredible sport and one which we have the utmost respect for
I personally consider weightlifting one of my favorite sports to follow and watch
Overhead Olympic weightlifts, and weightlift derivatives in general, are entirely unnecessary/costly, non-specific, and the overhead work is HIGHLY UNorthopedically sound for any athlete who’s primary expression of sport skill does not exist in the vertical plane
This is not my cue for a debate here. This is simply our view on the matter which you will be able to read oodles and oodles about in the upcoming article co-authored by Buddy and myself. Which by the way will be loaded with orthopedic references from Buddy, who by the way was nominated as a fellow to the ortho department at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center. So for those of you who have questioned Buddy’s knowledge of orthopedics, you need to realize that, in my view, he is most probably on par with many MD’s out there of the very same discipline, and he has forgotten more about orthopedics than most S&C coaches will ever know.
Frit, my site is not anti-Olifting. It is pro-the most optimal means/methods for training non-weightlifters
Your list sounds great, just remember S.A.I.D vertical movement yields specific adaptations. So for high jumpers, volley ball players, this is great. But the near entirety of contact/combat sport athletes move multi-directional and almost all of which exists in the horizontal plane and there are means/methods far superior to pull/vertical explosive means for developing explosive power horizontally/linearlly/laterally etc
Again, not looking for a debate, just reiterating what will be covered by Buddy and myself in the article.
Frit, I am really looking forward to viewing the list and tapes. Much appreciated.
I truly may be yourself, 62, and Buddy’s biggest fan. Really i have read an read every post and article you have up and enjoy it tremendously and i even just picked up Buddys GPP booklet, it was awsome.
Because of what I learned in the past from you/62/X is why i made the list excluding the snatch and clean. I literally had you guys in mind when making the list. Sorry if my post sounded like i was bieng a wise ass, just trying to show that there is more out there than just the clean and snatch. I am truly trying to find a middle ground here.
One question though: is the squat variations, deadlift variations, box jumps(charlie uses for acceleration) depth jumps down, shrugs, shrug pulls all happen in the vertical plane. If so why couldn’t high pulls be used as well?
and technique is not an issue.