Got this from the snelkracht site, from a page on the HSI weight plan:
some good quotes from John Smith “…sprinters need a lot more muscle than long distance runners…the shorter the dash, the more muscular the runner needs to be…” Smith immediately started Greene in the weight room to add the needed muscle to carry him to the world class level. Maurice came to HSI at 155, and now weighs about 175. “…one of the primary purposes of weight training for sprinters is to train the nerveous system to produce power while still experiencing fatigue… more body strength, power and bodyweight is REQUIRED to propel the body forward and sustain the speed across the finish line…”
think this means, Mo Greene came to HSI with already good short speed(0m-60m) at 155, in 1996, and certain strength, and then he got heavier(more muscle) to 175-180lb. range with no degradation in his foot speed but maybe even increased it around 6.4-6.5 range, and as well increased his power(strength) to get up to 175. So since he was heavier at 60m(175lbs.) in 1997, and faster, he had more momentum then he had at 60m when he weighed 155lb, and was a bit slower.
So this must be what kersse is doing with felix. She maintains her footspeed as well as increasing it, while increasing her body weight and body strength(power). This gives her more momentum at around 50m-60m compared to before when she was lighter. And since she maintained her footspeed as she was doing this and increased her strength(power), she should be able to maintain.
Also, maybe you must be more stronger(powerful) relatively speaking, compared to your former lighter self.
Do you think there’s a certain point where mass is too much though? Like is there a prime spot for each athlete or after a certain weight it just doesn’t make a difference anymore (even with increased strength). I guess what I’mt rying to say is…is there a specific bodyweight to strength ratio that is optimal for the athlete.
Do you think there’s a certain point where mass is too much though? Like is there a prime spot for each athlete or after a certain weight it just doesn’t make a difference anymore (even with increased strength). I guess what I’mt rying to say is…is there a specific bodyweight to strength ratio that is optimal for the athlete.
Yes this is almost exactly what I have been trying to get across. I think an athlete needs to build up, first develop the muscular frame then back to speed development mostly neurological as well as other physical adaption, and continue on in this manner, with weight to strength becoming decreasingly important. At sometime a limit may be hit, but if performed properly athletes probably will not reach that point or are incapable. By performed properly I am talking about overbalking, instead hypertrophy should only be targeted at specific body parts and in small intervals, not an attack phase trying to balk an athlete up 5-10lbs a crack.
Its a lot of give an take between proper locomotion and energy expenditure and finding the proper mix for the athletes current performance level. Its like the body has a certain ability - neurologically and you have to build the optimal frame physically to produce thee best results. This is where hypertrophy fits in and while musculature is the topic here, other systems as well would be taken into consideration. So you have to continually train both to feed off of each other in the most optimal manner.
Maybe he would have sucked at throwing since he wouldn’t have been able to put as much into throwing practice. This isn’t going anywhere–you don’t get the idea of spreading stimulus through a variety of methods, yet leaving the most energy for the event/sport itself (in this case, sprinting). I’m sure all of those coaches using bodybuilding methods are doing it wrong though. Look at those bulky FSU sprinters dominating D1…
Why are you so sarcastic? I’m trying to understand your perspective…I’m not antagonizing you. Relax.
Anyways, in regards to building a solid body composition for means of momentum through the finish…done before sprint training begins? during? I believe in CFTS it sys something about Charlie going through a hypertrophy phase when he was much younger. Would his sprinting have had a much different turn had he stayed the size he started until midway through his training career? In other words…would allyson be even faster NOW had she had her muscle building phase earlier in life?
Hypertrophy/bodybuilding methods don’t necessarily mean gaining a lot of muscle or any at all! Using higher reps =/= gaining muscle if the rest of your training is in place and your diet as well. What you are confusing is a bodybuilder or athlete gaining 15-20+lbs in a hypertrophy phase for their sport and a sprinter gaining maybe 1-2lbs and a lot more strength. Again, if you think you need some advanced methods for building strength in over 90% of non-lifting athletes then you are a little mistaken. Plenty of people can gain lots of strength without ever going to or over 90% of their 1rm or anything like that.
Keep in mind Ben Johnson sprinted 10.2x at age 19 before he had as much muscle. He is one guy and not the best example, but look at a lot of the general things we see. Do you need tons of muscle to run fast? No, but I wouldn’t consider guys like Mo or Ben, who were both under 180lbs, guys with tons of muscle (relative to american football, bodybuilding, etc.).
So I think what your getting at is that I’m mistakening a bodybuilders hypertrophy phase for a sprinters, where as in reality the latter is 1-2lbs over a much longer period and over several years adding up to what one bodybuilder may see in a year?
I know the general population / non lifting athletes dont require advanced templates close to their maxes…I’m operating under the assumption that they have a training history however. Of course they’re going to gain strength from a bodybuilding rep/set scheme however it’s just much slower then building maximal strength, which is why I’d be very interested to see those studies about higher rep values being more beneficial as this is a very intriguing topic!
Just to add…I know that a certain rep scheme does not equal a gain in mass…I’m not stupid haha…I’m just read that as a hypertrophy phase which to my mind meant a bodybuilder type routine.
I totally agree. From what I’m gathering it’s just the optimal weight for the athlete…and since everyone is different some people will be effective at lower weights where as others will not (which is why you see some sprinters that are much thicker then others).
I don’t really believe that hypertrophy is nearly as bad as many here have made it out to be. Now I’m not talking about training with the sole intent of getting “huge” or “jacked” or what have you Rather I believe that there is nothing wrong with training in higher rep ranges (6-10 reps) and in fact may be more beneficial at times, as those studies suggest. Charlie has said it over and over again in a variety of ways about CNS resources and how different stimulus’ compete for those resources. You simply cannot give 100% on the track and 100% in the gym, one will suffer if you are lucky and more than likely both will suffer. As an athlete you must establish what your priority is and work towards it in an efficient manner, deciding how much you will allocate to each training element in order to reach the desired level of stimulus for each day.
While I am not an “elite” level sprinter, I run consistent 10.3-10.5h clockings when I am doing my speed workouts, I can tell you from my own experience that after a quality speed session there is no way that I could do a workout with percentages in the 85-95% range of my max. The answer then is to lower the intensity in the weight room to ensure that the “CNS cup” does not overflow by using rep/set/load parameters that are less competitive for CNS resources as Charlie says. While the weights are not nearly as impressive as they would be if I hadn’t done the speed workout, the end result is that I will improve the qualities that matter the most to me, speed and explosiveness, which translate into a better football player at the expense of being a better weightlifter/powerlifter in this case. To me this is the essence of using weights as a supplementary and general means of training.
As an aside, I would be willing to bet that there are a good number of “overly muscled”, as many here would say, NFL players past and present who could hold their own against sprinters, especially in the 60m and even out to 100m.
TWhite03, good post man. I agree with you all the way. My weights are never as good after a speed session as they could be if it were just a “Weights” day.
The most intelligent post of the thread.
Allyson , also , is way to tiny, and more muscle (up to a certain limit) means more potential to grow streght, greater tolerance to work, injury prevention and so on.
Then , remeber we are training sprinters , not wlifters…last thing, there is always a weak part in the chain, they are working what they perceive it is.
Ok so esentially you are saying your working in the higher rep ranges to make the intensity much lower so that your sprinting wont suffer from draining CNS resources?
Agree with tamfb, if you cant maintain intensity then take time between workouts, do some type of recovery, etc. Its not merely lower weights add reps, if your just switching around your weight and rep scheme because you are draining yourself, well then you have to look at whats wrong with your training program, switching your weightroom scheme just because you cant handle high intensity work there makes it seem like you have no goal for your weightroom work. Really think about what your trying to accomplish in the weightroom, if you dont know, well then dont do it until you figure it out.
No it’s not that you don’t have a goal with your weight training. It’s that the goal isn’t to have the finest looking weight program out there, the goal is to see improvement on the playing field/track. Many of you would have a guy do CFTS in the morning and Westside in the evening. After all it looks great on paper, doesn’t it. Many of you assume that Charlie had Ben go into the weightroom and work with powerlifting type intensities every time. From what I have seen, a lot of the great numbers Ben put up in the weight room were seen through the 6-10 rep range. Remember also that Charlie said that many of these workouts were only 20 minutes in duration!
I believe that what Charlie says about weights following speed is spot on. The thing is that the strength may not be directly expressed in the weight room. Sure you could deload some sprint work to display your max strength levels, but that would only detract from the main goal.
Popeqique, your post sounds a lot like the following coach that Charlie describes:
I will, once again, try to make my point through a cautionary tale. The 1980 Olympic women’s sprint champ left her husb/coach and married Yuri Seydich, the Oly Hammer Champ. After having a baby, she started coming back under Yuri’s guidance. He told me: “I went through her weight program and it was a mess! The weights were all over the place, here today, absent tomorrow! The first thing I did was straighten out the weight program!”
I recognized why, as a secondary element, her weights varied, but cringed and said nothing. Predictably, perhaps, he wanted to use his unsurpassed knowledge of weights to help his wife. Equally predictably, she never ran well again.
The operation was a success but the patient died!" -Charlie Francis
The ultimate goal of your training is to run fast or perform better on the field of play. Weights is simply a means to reach that end.
No one in particular, the point was that you cannot always pair the finest sprint program with the best program to increase strength and expect to have results. The weights must serve as complimentary to the primary goal of more speed. Therefore the weights must adjust appropriately. Which is why you cannot expect to use max strength parameters continually and expect to see results.
The point is that bodybuilding methods are less competitive for CNS resources, just as Charlie has said.
Also, tamfb why would you even lift with max strength intensities with your numbers? I would think that it would prove too risky for you to continually work with weights close to your max.