Browsing through the forums reading about people’s training programs, I’ve seen a few who prescribe taxing speed sessions and weights the same day.
Could anyone explain what they think it’s benefit is apart from it saves time. (which is no argument for it anyway.)
Thanks
SeanJos
given requirements for recovery/rest days theres only so many days of the week where you can beat up your cns…what evidence do you have that shows this approach to not be good ?
Because by splitting up high and low intensity work you allow the CNS to recover in time for the next speed session. If you were to go Speed 1 day and weights the next then speed the 3rd day weights the 4th day you will always be performing the speed work in a state of CNS fatigue therefore preventing optimal ability to perform the most important element of your programme (track work).
Also note that in a properly constructued programme the weights and speed work will have been planned with respect to one another. Therefore, on a very sapping speed session the weights would be of slightly lower intensity to compensate and vice versa. And remember, if you are so drained by the speed work you can always chop the weights all together.
Playing around with weights and speed work (both high intensity elements) allows a lot of room for variation. At the highest levels it might be one of your greatest weapons… though Charlie can comment more on this.
TC
Thanks
It is counter productive to perform high intensity workouts on the same day though.
Our argument is this:-
The body has only 100 units of adaptive ability. Not 100 for speed and 100 for strength - 100 total !!!
The only way you could perform them on the same day without over training would be that if one of these components were performed at an intensity that wouldn’t stimulate an adaptive response anyway, only make ‘inroads’ in the recovery process (which of course has to come first.)
What is the hypothesis behind why it does work ? That would be interesting. :rolleyes:
Seanjos
Who says that the 100 units is only being spent on one thing or the other?
CFTS works and virtually every successful program in any speed/power event places multiple types of stress on the same day (throws and weights on same day/sprints and weights/ plyos and sprints and weight/etc.)
Who says that the 100 units is only being spent on one thing or the other?
I didn’t- in fact the geatest training results are achieved through multiple stresses. E.g the affect squats (a strength exercise) have on stroke volume,cardiac output,LD capacity and the lactate threshold.
My point was that after a properly conducted speed session close to 100 of adaptive ability units will have been used.
So the little that is left will not be enough to cover the effect of a weight session intense enough to result in a strength/power increase. It would certainly put you over the 100 and result in overtraining.
In the article by CF that was the main reason for my first post (well… and to show off) he claims H.I.T puts you in a constantly overtrained state… How can this possibly be true ??? once you hit over training your system is using it’s every resource to RECOVER the damage, there is nothing left for adaptation. Notice how when sun burn heals it does not result in a tan. Same priciple…it simply puts you back to zero and in bad cases (bodybuilders) it puts you at -1.
So H.I.T trainees would be improving their strength by 5% a year. LOL.
SeanJos
The idea is you use what is left for weights and no more. You should leave sessions feeling refreshed, not depleted beyond belief. That is doing more than your body needs for adaptation. What kind of volumes are you using for speed? I don’t see why somebody cannot conduct a moderate volume sprint session along with moderate weights @ 80+%.
HIT goes to failure… consistently. In fact, there is no point in the program where failure is not reached. The CNS uses all it has for crappy adaptations (will we ever see the results?) as not enough interplay of volume/intensity may occur (1 set max of 12 reps vs. 3 sets of 4 or 6 sets of 2).
SeanJos,
It sounds like you are a college student in Exercise Science. It’s great that you are learning, but don’t get to restricted by things. S
Sometimes if you get to narrow you get lost from the big picture.
I think that you have to consider if it is possible to use 100units of CNS from a speed session until the athlete has reached elite level? More often than not for the non elite they will just fatigue muscularly and technically much faster than they will use up thier CNS resources. This is the very first thing that is covered in the Van’02 DVD.
However, at the elite level it may occur and hence why weights are done after speed - so you can get rid of them when needed and come back to this less specific stimulus later. Also note how Charlie avoids certain exercises that place a huge stress on the CNS and picks the ones he uses carefully.
TC
I think that you have to consider if it is possible to use 100units of CNS from a speed session until the athlete has reached elite level? More often than not for the non elite they will just fatigue muscularly and technically much faster than they will use up thier CNS resources. This is the very first thing that is covered in the Van’02 DVD.-tc0710
EXACTLY !!! What Devan is suggesting is an abhorrence to the requirements of an elite level athlete. Their bodies are use to every kind of stimulus there is so improvements can only occur from training of the highest intensity.
So that makes the following statement erroneous:-
I don’t see why somebody cannot conduct a moderate volume sprint session along with moderate weights @ 80+%. - Davan
As i’ve said before the only way you could get away with this is if the intensity was too low to stimulate a change anyway. So why bother ?
‘crappy adaptations.’ Herd mentality at it’s worst.
SeanJos
How is 80% of a 1RM way too low for strength gains? I don’t know many people who can do 12 reps with 80% (# of reps man HIT programs advocate) and 2x6, which Charlie used in squats often (ie 2x6 @ 600lbs for a certain sprinter), certainly is not 90% or above of 1RM, so maybe you can explain there how this did not generate adaptations and did not facilitate change.
How is 80% of a 1RM way too low for strength gains? I don’t know many people who can do 12 reps with 80% (# of reps man HIT programs advocate) and 2x6, which Charlie used in squats often (ie 2x6 @ 600lbs for a certain sprinter), certainly is not 90% or above of 1RM, so maybe you can explain there how this did not generate adaptations and did not facilitate change.- Davan
On it’s own it’s fine.
The speed session will give no benefit on the same day though.
SeanJos
Well I guess Charlie and John Smith got it wrong. Maybe some other people (Duxx, James, etc. can expand).
Have you personally used both protocols before? Speed/Weights same day vs Speed-1, weights the next, etc… ? I would like to see how you feel personally this affects YOU, not what a book says. Speaking for myself, I have done both, and I have had MUCH better results using weights on my speed/special endurance days. Of course periodization comes into play, but the fact is that most people here are using this approach with great results. My two cents… I think you need to see for yourself seanjos, then you may have a different view?
Didn’t work for Ben at all did it! :rolleyes:
no none at all nor did it benifit ato boldon or Maurice Green or john drummond or frankie fredricks or asafa or Bruny Surin or Linford Christie nope didn’t benifit any of them. Not to say that it’s the only method to use for getting faster, it’s just an effective one. Sub elite atheltes can’t tax 100 hypothetical units of CNS reserves thats why they lift in conjunction with the speed training. Not to say other methods don’t work, far from it. Sprinters can come in all shapes and sizes and from all types of training programs, provided it gets results and helps the athelte get better any method CAN be used. However some just seem to be better than others.
SeanJos: if you don’t mind me asking, what is your background i.e. bodybuilder or athlete? From the way you write it seems you are experienced to a degree in the understanding of how some things work but why so against the planning of CNS recovery?
From past threads you have posted I notice you are very H.I.T. liking and would think you would also know failure training such as H.I.T. is extremely draining to the CNS.
In your observation and comment about why not perform the weights on the day after, well, where then would you like to put the tempo (recovery) component?