Each sled has it’s own friction coefficient coupled with what the ground surface presents on a given day.
Wet ground = less friction = more weight
Long grass = more friction = less weight
And so on.
Best bet is to bring a few weights - trial and error.
And to also be wise enough to STOP when you’re over-reaching.
Also - snow + no indoor facility suggestions
1 - school hall - might be cement, but use joggers
2 - community hall - as above
3 - Building with internal stairs
4 - Shopping center car park
Re - type of approach, L-S, S-L. I would aim for L-S on a 100-200 program to get some speed going.
With the right speed behind you, hitting your target in the 400m should really only take a few months of specific training. Esp with running 400’s as a background. Depending on your racing calendar, you might even simply be able to race yourself into 400m shape once your 200m is fast enough?
Yes i am thankful for the advices i get. I think I know many of the ideas behind the training, but I want to hear the reason why something is done, and not take everything for granted. I dont doubt that these suggestions I have got works.
I know its maybe impossible to give a me detailed program here, because everyone is different.
Let me post a suggestion of a weekly program and hear what people say. As long as its not terrible wrong I am happy.
The basic program I use, is my version of KK’s, it needs modification sometimes but depends on the athlete. The important sessions are after rest days.
Day 1 - Speed
Day 2 - Endurance (generally extensive tempo)
Day 3 - Off
Day 4 - Specific Speed
Day 5 - easy Endurance (easier than the Day 2)
Day 6 - Hills (work up to Overtime)
Day 7 - Off
For instance in winter I will use Day 1 for speed and specific speed, as it is difficult for my athletes and myself to get together 3 times a week (most are Uni students)
Would this look reasonable?
1:6x60m full rec+strength/plyos
2:6x200m 2 min rec/3x3x300m 1 min rep rec. 5 min set rec.
3:Rest/active recovery
4:7x100m. full rec+strength/plyos
5:30 min easy jogging
6:hills: 5x1 min. jogg slow down
7:Rest/active recovery
Now, how is your program going to work in cold conditions?
If you’ve got snow then clearly you’ve got temperature way below 0C
How/ will you be able to maintain relatively high muscle temperature doing 6x60m @ full rec and 7x100m@ full rec at such a low temperature and at the same time be able to facilitate the desired neuromuscular responses? (I do understand that full recovery is a minimum 10min or longer depends on the level of the athlete)
Do you think that recovery is long enough in 6x200m 2 min rec/3x3x300m 1 min rep rec. 5 min set rec. what do you trying to achieve by such a short recoveries and such a big volume (2700m)?
How they going to vary (recovery times and volume) across the season or even micro/ meso-cycles?
How long hills (1min) with jog back and 30 min easy jogging are going to contribute to your improvements in 400m?
I’ve never had a 24flat runner be able to finish 6x60m while maintaining speed throughout, and I would recommend avoiding plyos after this workout. Strength after a break is fine IMO.
2:6x200m 2 min rec/3x3x300m 1 min rep rec. 5 min set rec.
Since you didn’t specify the speed, I’m going to guess these are pretty fast. If that’s the case, you’ve got two consecutive hard days (esp including weights or plyos). Recovery from speed work is usually considered 2 days. Recovery from this workout could be 1-3 days depending on speed of reps.
3:Rest/active recovery
I’d like to see this workout switching with your day 2.
4:7x100m. full rec+strength/plyos
How fast? I don’t understand the pupose of this workout.
5:30 min easy jogging
If you’re trying to improve your top speed, I don’t like this very much. If you’re still training with 400/800 in mind, I like it.
Without looking at the weather, as it is a considering.
Not sure of the 60’s, I would possibly shorten them personal to 50 or under and and have a flying 30 + 20. I wouldn’t do the plyos
KK has his 6 x 200’s at last 100m pace of 400, so could work. the 3x3x3 needs to be extensive tempo so at 70% of max pace.
Rest/Active Recovery = day off.
Not sure about 7x100, but am struggling to suggest an alternative. I would almost put the Day 2 session of 6x200 here, there is a suggestion on how to build up to this session somewhere on the forum
30 minutes easy jogging, I have no problem with it - I have two 400m runners one doesn’t like continuous runs whereas the other one does. If you enjoy it for mental reason do it
Hills seem okay. Maybe something like 2 x 2 x 100 with slow jog down between reps and full recovery between sets
Without knowing everything about you, which will never happen on a forum, at best we can give you guidelines so I hope this helps
These sessions are sessions kitkat has been using in his 400m training program. These sessions came to my mind after reading the lactate threshold post.
Sorry that I makeu misunderstand because I said I could not do hills from nov-april. I have access to indoor track 7 days per week. Just that there is no hills indoor
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Wk1
Day Session(s)
Trials 300m (stand start), and 150m. + Weights (Lowest Reps Possible).
Rest
Trials 80m and 200m + Weights (As Normal, all exercises, for volume at 80-85% of 1rmax)
Rest
Rest
REPEAT 6-WK CYCLE STARTING FROM WK 1.
Now that’s the basical outline. You have to monitor the athlete closely. I don’t want to be prescriptive with times because every athlete will have to vary, depending on training years and ability and commitment. No-one is going to go from being a 50sec runner to 44sec in one year (unless they have previously been close to 44sec).
I make zero demands during the first cycle. But I use that to calculate (also based on PBs and standard 400m models) what MIGHT be appropriate target times for the reps for each individual.
The second time through the cycle, I ask more of the athlete, of course with consideration to all the things posted earlier on this thread.
As I said, “absolute” speed is not really being develop. There is too much volume even in the speed-power cycle to classify the work as 100m develop-type stuff. But as the athletes get fitter, they can deliver some fairly impressive speed through those sessions - especially over the years. The best male 400m runner I had the honour to work with started to run some ridiculously quick times during some GPP sets. Then again his body adapted over the seven years (double periodised) we worked together.
kk
I’ve never had a 24flat runner be able to finish 6x60m while maintaining speed throughout, and I would recommend avoiding plyos after this workout. Strength after a break is fine IMO.
That means the distance of the runs is too long? should be 40-50m instead?
Why would you not recommend plyos after?
I am thinking about easy plyos here like, splitjumps, squatjumps, 1 legged jumps. Nothing extreme.
Since you didn’t specify the speed, I’m going to guess these are pretty fast. If that’s the case, you’ve got two consecutive hard days (esp including weights or plyos). Recovery from speed work is usually considered 2 days. Recovery from this workout could be 1-3 days depending on speed of reps.
Seems like in kitkats program there are consecutive hard days. As long as the demand on the CNS is different it should be ok?
4:7x100m. full rec+strength/plyos
How fast? I don’t understand the pupose of this workout.
I guess the purpose is building speed endurance.
30 min easy jogging
If you’re trying to improve your top speed, I don’t like this very much. If you’re still training with 400/800 in mind, I like it.
How can 1 session per week of 30min jog interfere with speed development? I cant really see the big problem with it. It takes more to make any fiber conversions I guess. And since its a recovery day I cant really see many other sessions that will make a big difference.
Quote Originally Posted by volle View Post
Would this look reasonable?
1:6x60m full rec+strength/plyos
2:6x200m 2 min rec/3x3x300m 1 min rep rec. 5 min set rec.
3:Rest/active recovery
4:7x100m. full rec+strength/plyos
5:30 min easy jogging
6:hills: 5x1 min. jogg slow down
7:Rest/active recovery
Without looking at the weather, as it is a considering.
Not sure of the 60’s, I would possibly shorten them personal to 50 or under and and have a flying 30 + 20. I wouldn’t do the plyos
KK has his 6 x 200’s at last 100m pace of 400, so could work. the 3x3x3 needs to be extensive tempo so at 70% of max pace.
Rest/Active Recovery = day off.
Not sure about 7x100, but am struggling to suggest an alternative. I would almost put the Day 2 session of 6x200 here, there is a suggestion on how to build up to this session somewhere on the forum
30 minutes easy jogging, I have no problem with it - I have two 400m runners one doesn’t like continuous runs whereas the other one does. If you enjoy it for mental reason do it
Hills seem okay. Maybe something like 2 x 2 x 100 with slow jog down between reps and full recovery between sets
Without knowing everything about you, which will never happen on a forum, at best we can give you guidelines so I hope this helps
Thanks.
1.Why you wouldnt do the plyos?
2. Yes session 2 I have from kitkat
3. If you would put the 6x200 session on day 4, then what session would you typically do on day 2? Extensive tempo @ 75%
4. In kitkats program he suggest long hills like 50 sek-1 min. why would you only do 4x20 sec hills? For me this workout would be quite easy. normally I would do 8x20 sec hills.
Agreed.
Perhaps at the very elite level it makes a difference.
I’m 38 in a couple of months, and on the weekend competed in a 1.5hr mud run. I’m pretty confident of reaching close to my pb over 200 and 400m over the next Couple of months !
The two diatances are 15yrs old pbs.
Age and a lot of long runs should be making me slower…
I have other ideas
I guess its more important to train speed than to avoid doing longer runs if you know what I mean.
I think however too much long runs will make the sprint sessions suffer abit. So in moderation and its individual what u can handle. I guess jeremy wariner can handle much more long runs than f.ex usain bolt.
If you have an access to the indoor track then you can train as you pleased, you can approach the training from both ends of the 400m or whatever.
If you are looking at someone program then you have to look as a whole training process.
Look at the KKs program and you can see that the volume and intensification across weeks is changing. The way I see 3x3x300m in KK program is.
The week3 in KKs program as far as I concern is a recovery week and 3x3x300 is an Extensive/ intensive tempo.
The week3 has only one day of high intensity components in total volume of 1500m (week1- 2 high intensity days volume around 2200-2800m, week2- 2/3 high intensity days including 5x200 total volume 3420m excluding 5x200 volume around 2420m, week 4&5- 2 high intensity days excluding Friday volume around 2700m).
So you can see now that there is reason why 3x3x300m is only in week3 and not in every week (but that’s only my opinion)
The point I am trying to make is that, The Coaching and the whole training process is like a puzzle and every component of training fits in somewhere, it just takes a while to figure it out where and why.
You seem to have started reading and searching with regards to your plan in a more systematic way and this is a great start! I would also recommend getting CF’s work as well, so you have a broader picture of training plans and alternatives; it helps!
Since you have an indoor facility, it makes sense to work your pure speed in a short to long format. Since you have taken some ideas from KK’s plan, you can see the same trend in his plans, too!
Perhaps I am wrong, but try not to ‘copy / paste’ KK’s plan, for example. Keep the format and the main ideas that suit you best, not necessarily every session. I coach students at the Army Academy in my country and I have used KK’s plan in an adjusted mode, as it is impossible to follow it in full due to their level and/or crazy schedules with their duties. In your case for example, a long run or a high-volume hill work could be OK due to your background, but you may not be able to handle too much high intensity work. KK uses back-to-back days, but if you fry yourself on Day 1, Day 2 will have to be </=70%. If you work on smaller doses, you can keep the weekly format and build on that. To give you an example, Day 1 seems to me a bit too much to start with.
What I have done is that I have copied what I consider his key sessions into my program:
(I am aware that I might need to reduce the volume on the key sessions)
that would be:
-6x200m
-300+150, 150+150, 100+80, 80+60, 60+60 (all 30sec b/reps; full rec between sets)
-long hills
-350, 300, 250, 200, 150, 100, 60, 50, 40, 30. slow walkback recoveries.
-Track fast, relaxed 300+4x60, 250+3x60, 200+2x60, & 150+1x60.
-2(300+150)
-300+60,50,40,30; 200+60,50,40,30; 150+60,50,40,30 (30sec rest between long rep and first short rep)
-3x3x300m
But I have changed to weekly structure so that there are NO back to back hard days.
I have also includet many short speed sessions to increase my top speed.
It goes over 6 weeks like kitkats, but its more spaced out with more recovery inbetween.
How did you change the structure from KKs
Do you see in KKs training meso-cycle back to back hard days? (maybe week 2?)
There is enough room for recovery in every successfully program. The 2:1 structure works great for KKs, 3:1 is good too, as long as you have a good recovery protocols in your micro- cycles.
Firstly, look at your old program maybe you need just a small change.
Secondly, write down what you can do in your program during winter time,
Thirdly, structure your program over one meso- cycle don’t forget to include recovery micro-cycle,
I suggest asking ESTI for his opinion. He has successfully modified KitKat’s program for everyone from high school kids to masters athletes.
My hunch is that you should follow KitKat’s GPP pretty closely and be very, very careful about adding anything “extra” into the program during the GPP unless you plan to take something else out. I think adding in very few accelerations from 10-30m might be tolerable during GPP especially in the first 2.5 weeks but be careful of anything longer as there is already a lot of volume of rather high quality in there.
From what I see from kitkats program there is not much pure speed development. According to many in this tread they say I should focus on increasing my speed. Therefore I have put many short speed sessions in there.
I have added extra to his program, but I have also removed some of the extensive tempo sessions. All in all I think its a easier program than KK`s
I have a problem seeing how my speed can be improved with only KK sessions?
I changed the structure with more recovery runs and more short speed sessions.
In week 1 and 2 KK has to hard sessions back to back.
5x200 + Weights
Long Hills
2 (300+150) + Weights
5 x 200
For me this sounds really hard, and I dont think I can do both sessions with high quality.
Why not space them with an easy recovery day? Or is the purpose to accumulate fatigue to get a supercompensation?
If I follow KKs program I am not sure that my speed will be developed?, as it its my weakness.
Maybe his atlethes werealready really fast and needed more the speed endurance?
How do you understand quality?
Do you believe that high quality runs can be performed on the long hills?
Long hills workout is a muscular one which is hard on the body but not on the CNS therefore you can perform those runs next day after 5x200.
You have to distinguish the difference between high intensity (high stress CNS) components which require 48 hours or longer to recover and low intensity one which require 24h of recovery.
5x200m in week2 might have a different purpose, if they fast then the purpose could be to rough the systems up, preparing for the rounds etc…, if moderate speed then focus possibly on the posture and on how the body responds to the fatigue, it could be just controlled 200m, there are many options depends what you want to do and where the emphasize is at the given week.
As T-Slow mentioned above for specific details you could ask ESTI or you can go right to the top, nevertheless you should keep reading, reading, reading.
