300's & 400's In Training for Sprinters

I just finish reading a post over at another message board and this discussion became very interesting.

I have a quick question regarding having sprinters running 300’s & 400’s in training.

I have read where 300’s & 400’s help w/ recovery from meets.

And some claim that 300’s & 400’s helps w/ the last 50m in the 100 & 200m.

I know of athletes who don’t perform these distances in their training.

I’m big on TOP END SPEED WINS.
There’s no correlation btw a 31.5 and a 9.90 sprinters. I’m sure there’re a few guys out there who can run 31. 45 in the 300 m and 30 min later post a 51.1 in training and can’t run 10.2 FAT over 100 m. You would think if you can run 31.4 (300m) you should be able to run 10.2 right?

Why do 1 x 300m & 400m @ 90% w/ 30m rest, time goals sub 32, and sub 52?

What’s the purpose?

Any thoughts.

This isn’t a debate on endurance I’m asking about why do 300’s & 400’s in training?

I see a similar post has been started regarding Ato’s workouts.

Kenny Mac~~

I coached 3 guys this year who ran
their 300 m time trial in 37’s but their 100 m times were 10.80-11.05.

Does anyone else have 300 m best marks and 100 m best marks out there?

So we can compare the marks.

I know Carl Lewis & SMTC use to run 300’s in 31.3-32 and those guys were running 9.9’s to 10.0’s & 19.8’s & 20.1’s. I think HSI have similar times.

But I bet Montgomery’s best 300 m is only 33.5 over these last 3 years?

Any stats on Montgomery’s over distance sessions?

Kenny Mac~

I don’t know that top and always wins. Mo hasn’t cracked 11.8m/s yet he has the second fastest time ever. Tim, Donovan, Frankie and Carl (all sub 9.9) have 12.1m/s top speeds. So it would seem that it really comes down to planning the race to suit the athlete.

Likewise i think that training must be geared the same way. Some sprinters will benefit from longer reps, MJ, Mo, Ato, Frankie, Oba among others are these athletes, whilst others dont. Simple as that.

Let me clear up my first post. In case you guys don’t understand my question.

Say in 2002 a 10.60/21.90 sprinter wants to improve his last 50 m of his race.
He feels he needs better conditioning because he gets out good for 30 m for the 100 m and 50 m for the 200 m.

Any during the off season he performs 1 set of 250 m, 300 m & 400 m, the 250 m is only @ 70%, but the 300 m & 400 m is at 90%, times 36.2 in the 300 m and 53.33 over 400 m w/ 20 min rest btw each rep.

How would this sprinter perform during his 2003 season?

Did he fix his problem?

Would he get faster or slower?

I predict that he would be able to run more 10.6’s & 21.9’s throughout the season maybe back to back w/in 5 days, because his body can with stain more.
He should be able to hold peak form longer oppose to the previous season.

Kenny Mac~~

"I don’t know that top and always wins. Mo hasn’t cracked 11.8m/s yet he has the second fastest time ever. Tim, Donovan, Frankie and Carl (all sub 9.9) have 12.1m/s top speeds. So it would seem that it really comes down to planning the race to suit the athlete.

Likewise I think that training must be geared the same way. Some sprinters will benefit from longer reps, MJ, Mo, Ato, Frankie, Oba among others are these athletes, whilst others dont. Simple as that." QUOTE!!

I agree, I think I heard John Smith say that he teaches his guys to run a consistent race meaning posting a few .84 & .85 oppose to one .83 at 65 meters.

You made a good point regarding Lewis w/ his 12.1 m/sec.

I Like that!

Kenny Mac~~

Originally posted by Dazed
I don’t know that top and always wins. Mo hasn’t cracked 11.8m/s yet he has the second fastest time ever. Tim, Donovan, Frankie and Carl (all sub 9.9) have 12.1m/s top speeds. So it would seem that it really comes down to planning the race to suit the athlete.

Likewise i think that training must be geared the same way. Some sprinters will benefit from longer reps, MJ, Mo, Ato, Frankie, Oba among others are these athletes, whilst others dont. Simple as that.


So it would seem that it really comes down to planning the race to suit the athlete.

I saw where you mention the planning of the race. Do you mean the race set up as far as how far one drives and his lifting phase and stepping over phase?

Kenny Mac~~

In training i have ran 36.4 300… meet 10.6 hand time 11.00 f.a.t.

My fastest 300 meter time in practice is 34.5 and my fastest 100 is 10.46 fat and 21.28 fat in the 200.I do belive that running 300’s at practice will make you a lot stronger in your 200’s and 100’s. I first started running them hard last year and that is when i PR’d.

The occassional 300 would probably work well for a 200m runner but I would think 150’s would be better suited to a 100meter runner. (ie: Three 150 SE runs with full recovery)
that is just my opinion though taking into consideration the systems targeted in both events.

cheers,
Chris

Chris or somebody else,
Could you please give me a quick rundown of the energy systems needed for up to 400m?
I found this:
http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/energysystems.html
when I searched online, but I think there’s probably a little bit more too it, or 300s would target the proper energy system for 100m.
Berardi to the rescue:
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/training/gettinginshape.htm
This was helpful. “He says A 100m sprint is run within the ATP-PC domain.” I guess 150s are similar. I won’t delete this post in case anybody else is curious.
As you probably guessed I kept editing this as I searched on the internet.

I’ve gone 35 in the 300 outdoors in practice. I run right around 11flat FAT. 22.5 in the 200m and 51point in the 400m

[quote]Originally posted by Kenny Mac
"I don’t know that top and always wins. Mo hasn’t cracked 11.8m/s yet he has the second fastest time ever. Tim, Donovan, Frankie and Carl (all sub 9.9) have 12.1m/s top speeds. So it would seem that it really comes down to planning the race to suit the athlete.

Likewise I think that training must be geared the same way. Some sprinters will benefit from longer reps, MJ, Mo, Ato, Frankie, Oba among others are these athletes, whilst others dont. Simple as that." QUOTE!!

I agree, I think I heard John Smith say that he teaches his guys to run a consistent race meaning posting a few .84 & .85 oppose to one .83 at 65 meters.

I will say that I don’t agree with this comment.

Mo has excellent acceleration and with a maximum acceleration he reaches 11.8m/s. With that he also has excellent speed endurance for the max speed he reaches. Does anyone know within Mo’s races who has had better max speed? Look at Ben’s Zurich race of 12.35m/s. The 100m is not a flying 20. The whole issue of ‘general organism strength’ as well as ‘special organism strength’ comes into play here. Can someone posts the stats of major champ and take a look at the max speed of those races. From the limited stats I’ve seen it’s the max velocity that’s the major factor in determining your finishing place.

35.7h for 300m… 11.14 100m, 22.70, 49.50

I personally think that 300’s at above 95% are the way to go. I have used 400’s in the past more as tempo stuff. However, a few times a year, and I mean like 3 sessions all year, we have done 500 or 450 x 2, or 5-3 with full recovery. but I don’t think that going over 300 while at full speed is something that should be done too often. It will help with strength in the 200, but depending on the type of runner that you are, maybe 150’s or 250’s would be better (turnover v. even runner) Chris mentioned this below. just my thoughts
mike

Can 300s help the sprints? Sure for some- others may use a shorter range of SE runs. As a general observation, the people with the highest speed tolerance may choose SE reps over shorter distances, and those with a slightly lower speed tolerance may use 300s (lower CNS stress for a given speed volume [compare 2 x 300m to 5 x 120m in terms of intensity] and more differentiation of speed sessions, thus varying demands). As for recovery 300s and 400s at the pace described, I see no benefit, in terms of recovery, or on the finish of the 100m.
Chris6878: Your 300m time of 34.5 is well below your performance levels in competition over the 100 and 200m and your 100 is stronger than your 200, so I’m not sure of the impact unless it is at the end of a fairly hard session. With adequate recovery, you may be able to drop the 300m time substantially.

I think that when you are talking about 300’s and 400’s as a part of your training you need to consider recovery times when you are trying to improve your speed endurance. 20 minutes is simply too long of a rest period. you want your body to recover but you dont want it to go back to idle before you perform that distance again. I am a 200m - 400m runner. the best way to encorporate 300’s and 400’s into your workout would be as such. 3x400m @ 80 - 85% w/ 3 min recovery or a 200m walk or jog recovery. this keeps your body up and allows for good lactic to build. this is great lactic threshold training and this will help you in your last 50 m of your 200m. for your 100m this may help as well but a better way would be to increase your drive pahse to appx 50m instead of 30m this takes a greater emphasis on your overall strength and your arm drive. now you can hold your top end speed easier for a distance of 50m than you can for 70m.

Originally posted by shabachsports
I am a 200m - 400m runner. the best way to encorporate 300’s and 400’s into your workout would be as such. 3x400m @ 80 - 85% w/ 3 min recovery or a 200m walk or jog recovery.

why run @ 80-85%? either you are running fast, or you are doing tempo, in between is pointless except for maybe in GPP.

I agree with ESPN3. Training 300/400 have to be either at tempo pace or for special endurance, at 95%+ pace.

Another question in this regard -
For a 400m athlete - PB 45,25, with a sub 45 goal - what will the aim be for 300? 31? 32?

If 2 x 300 is on the programme, recovery time 15’ - 20’ - what do you recommend: both “as fast as possible”?

Charlie and others, help!

I would guess 31 would be a great goal for maximal work. I have yet to produce a sub 45 guy…

isn’t that interval time a little short?