Last I heard they were hand timed.
It would be very hard to run eletronic 4.4’s and 4.3’s.
And since the standard of past measurements is hand, I think they stay with that.
I was timed in 1996, by hand not at the combine but in front of pro scouts.
Quik, WHat’s up man!!! How did your meet go? We gotta get our Cortland Free Runnin team going 
…In response to “Were these 40’s at the combine electronic?” I think Kelsey is right, I think they were electronic…I watch the QB’s and WR’s run on the internet feed and it looked like they did it by hand, how could you tell if it was electronic?? Would there be a machine at the start/finish??? I think it was cool to watch this stuff ( I know I need a life )…I noticed that many guys would line up and take off the same way Joe Defranco trains in his Video Mastering the Combine Tests! Did anyone see this video…it teaches how to get the most advantage possible in these tests…I thought it was a pretty good video, What doe you’all think!!!
I think athletes should use CF principles and apply that. I am not sure what Defranco teaches but, why use another source???
ANd I think its hand timed not electric.
“I think athletes should use CF principles and apply that. I am not sure what Defranco teaches but, why use another source???”
I agree 100% with that!!..the defranco vid just shows how to kind of take advantage on the tests (ie. Starting positions, not really stretching fully when they measuring the your starting standing position for the vertical jump, bench set up for the most power…stuff like that)
I would like to know CF comments on starting positions for the 40.
For instance, I think that the idea of getting close to the line could be incorrect. If you give up possbile power by lining up close, then whats the point. The discussion or Defrancos tapes should address speed and power theories, and how his principles work.
Line up like this because it does this or creates this.
Aloha
Kelsey the video really does not go into any of the specifics as to how to improve your times or numbers via training methods…that kind of was a let down when I saw the video but I think that it is something someone going to the combine might get some advantage to taking a look at before they went!!!
i have the rooney/defranco 40 book, i haven’t looked at it in a while (and its at my parents house) but if i remember correctly its mostly acceleration stuff (10-20m).
I know you dont have it and I am not yelling at you.
But what kind of acceleration stuff.
WHat could he possibly say that is better than CF?
ANd how much does it cost?
As for not stretching when they measure you, I dont need a book or need to pay $49.95 for common sense.
If you are smart, most of what you need is in CF books, in fact most are in Speed Trap and The first training manual, but you have to read through the story as for the new stuff I am hoping is even more detailed and good follow up. Still waiting on some stuff. Plus i think he deals more with inj. rest and recovery.
Aloha
it has nothing on the CF stuff. i will call my brother tomorrow and have him read off the program for me because i honestly can’t give you a detailed analysis.
I don’t know anything about this tape and have no reason to think anything was mine on it.
charlie, i phrased that wrong. what i meant by “it has nothing on the CF stuff” is that it can’t even compare to any of your methods or products you’ve put out.
the tape for the most part details technique for the 20 yard shuttle, verticle leap, 40 start, bench press, etc…in order to try and take advantage of each event.
Why not look at something specific to the combine testing? Anyone else seen it? (I can’t comment on the start position as I havn’t seen the tape and you need to combine the best starting position with either the lift-off time for an E-pad or disguise your takeoff as much as possible if it’s hand.
They showed the guy from the NFL that would make the call on whether or not starts were legit explaining the rules to the WRs, and the way he talked, it was hand timed, talking about no rolling starts, etc because the scouts would start their watches earlier. Also, the defranco tape covers basically stance and start with some minor running mechanics because the purpose of the tape is to be quick fixes for guys that only have a month or two to get as ready as possible for these combines. and, i may be wrong since i havent watched the tape in awhile, but the main purpose of the stance defranco teaches is to get as far across the line while still being a legit start and not completely off balance.
I own Joe’s tape, I have been aware of his training insights for a few years now, and I have had a great discussion with him on the phone.
I also own many of Charlie’s materials, have been very active on his site, and was fortunate to have attended the Vancouver work shop.
My point…
I only comment on that which I know and have experienced personally.
I draw from many schools of thought in order to forge my own approach to training athletes and I have had great success thus far.
Both Joe and Charlie have had, and continue to have, tremendous success with their athletes.
Any coach or system of training is only as good as the abilities of the athlete’s which they produce. And by this logic, both Joe and Charlie are well deserved of much respect from those in the know.
Joe’s tape offers detailed technical insights which have served many athletes well when performing at combines.
Kelsey, Joe, like Charlie, is a no bullshit/very knowledgeable and experienced up front guy and there is no honor in discounting his combine or training insights. Don’t make the mistake of limiting your scope of knowledge to any singular school of thought, regardless of its accolades or efficacy. I believe that you would be well served by eliminating the word ‘better’ from your training related discussions as it implies a great degree of subjectivity.
Bottom line, Joe has had many of his athletes perform very well at combines and go on to the league. This is all that matters.
Any other discussion is purley academic.
If it works use it, if not, discard it.
I did state up front that I did see Joe’s program.
I asked how would Joe be better, i did not state CF was better. But the odds are in CF’s favor.
As for the bottom line of having athletes perform well as evidence, I know many coaches that are not very smart, but are fortunate to have good athletes, thereby assuring some degree of success.
This is not a good measure of someones knowledge.
And improvement can be from any training.
For instance, an athlete improves from a 4.7 to 4.5 thru this training system. He could have been out of shape when he ran the 4.7 and almost any program could have had the same result.
I have also been around a long time in sports, 25 years. I researched numerous programs only to find no real substance or a copied theory.
All I am saying is can anyone provide some info. on how Joe’s program is good. Give me a valid principle, just one that is insightful and original. Then the discussion can move forward.
I have seen Tom Tellez, coach of Carl Lewis, and his tape, it offered very little insight. Yet he is knowledgeable and up front etc. and has had tremendous success.
I have had discussion with Mike Marsh ,a Tellez athlete about the technique and watched workouts and there was no great insight. Just basic stuff. Maybe they didnt tell me or train a certain way. But the tape was basic, CF is not.
Aloha
Kelsey, it is surely true that certain athletes excel in spite of inferior coaching or methods, however, let us view this matter for what it is worth.
If an athlete comes to a coach, or decides to employ a certain method of training, and performs more optimally as a result, then this may be defined as a success.
Regardless of the state of the athlete prior, an improvement is an improvement. The magnitude and longevity of improvement, however, will surely vary depending on the efficacy of training.
To keep this discussion in context I feel that it is important to recognize the delineation between Joe and Charlie. Joe is not a pure speed coach like Charlie. Nor must he be compared to Charlie in this regard.
As has been stated, Joe’s tape is simply a demonstration of employing certain mechanical augmentations which, relatively rapidly, serve to improve test performance. This fact is validated by the results his athletes have experienced.
I agree that we must question, however, if we are to discard the volumes of athletes which ‘certain’ coaches or various systems produce then doesn’t this discussion become utterly academic and entirely meaningless.
Westside/Louie is the deal because of the continued strength of the gym.
The Bulgarian method under Abadjiev, is the deal because of the world class lifters which were produced.
Bondarchuk’s methods are the deal becuase of his long list of world class champion throwers.
The various Soviet and Eastern bloc methodologies are unquestionably effective due to the lineage of Olympic medalists from these countries in various power development disciplines.
If the athletes whos abilities are heightened as a result of training with various coaches is “not a good measure of someone’s knowledge” then I feel that you imply that competitive sucess is unrelated to coaching and primarily a product of great genetic raw materials which will develop regardless of imposed training stimulus.
Surely, I imply a certain degree of sarcasm, however, let’s not equate the complexity of training with the quality of training as per your Tellez reference. Incidentally, I am not familiar with Tellez’s approach to training.
If you are familiar with Occum’s razor than you may subscribe to the principle the the simplest solution is usually the most favorable.
Let the complexity of training evolve with the preparedness of the athlete.
In regards to providing a valid principle as to why Joe’s training insights are valuable, why not let the continued success of his athletes speak for itself.
I like his suggestion for the start set up “for the 40yd dash” as he justifies it only after having tried various approaches and has found this particular one to yield the most optimal results. Remember, the clock starts when the down hand leaves the ground.
His suggestions on the pro agility mechanics are great as well as he explains how more force is achieved from a linear mechanical starting/change of direction position as opposed to a lateral position.
I don’t want to go into too much detail on the tape as this is his product.
Practical observations will always out weigh theoretical objections.
Isn’t Aloha a greeting?
They record both hand times and electronic times. The electronic times only have an electronic finish-they are hand started by a guy at the start line. He (and all the scouts) start the clock on first movement. If you look close enough, you can see the electronic timers set up at the 10, 20 and 40 yard marks on the right hand side of the track. The NFL scouts generally time slow enough that their hand times are usually pretty close to the electronic time.
James,
First I like to say I appreciate your input.
Aloha means hello and goodbye.
Back to the discussion. I guess I would modify and say that successful athletes alone are not the best measure. So athletic success is related to coaching. There are many variables.
I am not sure he is a traditional coach.
Most of the people you mentioned coach their athletes to success over a period of time. Not give me 49.95 and I’ll teach you the secrets of speed and agility; Because look at what I did with these already blessed collegiate and pro athletes.
I’m sure he does a good job and probably worth the money to most people.
I should look at what you said,
“As has been stated, Joe’s tape is simply a demonstration of employing certain mechanical augmentations which, relatively rapidly, serve to improve test performance.”
If someone wants to spend money on learning techniques that seem common sense, go for it.
By the way I guessed the orginal $ of 49.95 and I went to his site and behold.
Again I have seen so many “professionals” trainning the pros over the years, I feel I can almost spot them by their ads.
In the end, I must say you are a bright guy and they should consider themselves lucky that you support them, and I guess I need to pay the 49.95 to see the insightful and original principle.
Aloha ame malama pono- Bye and take care
When I brought up the tape I was not saying Joe was better or worse than CF, sorry if that was how I came across…one thing i thought was funny was that in the intro to the video Joe says basically he thinks the combine tests are worthless but he says that he trained guys for these tests basically just so they can get drafted higher(make more dough :D), or he got kids scholarships (saved the parents lots of dough!!!), he says he disagrees with these tests but it does not seem like they are going anywhere so we might as well get good at them!!! Some other things he says is …“this video is not a football training video, it is a crash course on how to dominate the combine tests…the only way to see how good a football player is on the field to to put them on the field, put pads on them and let them play football…did I make them better football players absoultely not I prepared them for these tests!!!” No BS kind of intro!!! 