yoga

General Fitness
21

Originally posted by Druze
[b]Some more points against yoga.

Why not save your money, and time, by stretching at home, then going to the beach to check out the girls :slight_smile:
On a more serious note, the money saved by not joining a yoga class could be put towards massage.

D. [/b]

Why not save money on massage and get your next door neigbour to do it for you? You could get them to walk up and down your back arse and calves and save a bucket of money each month.

If something is worth doing, itā€™s worth doing properly. If you can find a decent yoga instructor, not just some camp bloke who thinks he looks good in lycra, it will make all the difference. Stretching and core strengthening (both emphasized by yoga) require correct posture to get the most out of them and to avoid injury.

As for hypermobility, TIM, you are talking theory out your arse. If an athlete is sprinting several times a week, performing volume running, lifting weights, a few yoga sessions a week is not going to cause a loss of elasticity or cause joints to become hypermobile. This is the equivelent of some one living in a bomb shelter on the off chance that a meteorite might flatten their house. The odds are similar.

22

Dazed your talkin rubbish,

Elighten me on how long it takes an athlete to become hypermobile. You have your definition of hypermobiliy all messed up like frasierā€™s hair. Couldnt it happen in just a few sessions. It could happen in one. How long does a yoga session last. An hour. Sounds like fun. Lets go stretch our hammies for an hour straight then try and sprint the next day.I bet I could make you hypermobile in less then a week. And if you keep it up I will. Also my house got hit with a meteor last night.

Go figure
:slight_smile:

23

Also you can be doing ridiculous amounts of sprinting, lifting, ect ect. Be competly sore and still be hypermoblie. This is not specifically correlated with the factors that you mentioned above. You can be hypermobile and not even play a sport.

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Elighten me on how long it takes an athlete to become hypermobile. You have your definition of hypermobiliy all messed up like frasierā€™s hair. Couldnt it happen in just a few sessions. It could happen in one. How long does a yoga session last. An hour. Sounds like fun. Lets go stretch our hammies for an hour straight then try and sprint the next day.I bet I could make you hypermobile in less then a week. And if you keep it up I will. Also my house got hit with a meteor last night.

Timothy,
i mean no disrespect here, but if you have never done REAL yoga then shut your mouth. yoga is extremely relaxing (already stated) and if you do it right, every movement flows effortlessly and you barely even feel a stretch.

peace

25

Overly increased range of movement of joints causing joint laxity and instability.

Is how I would define it, as opposed to your

To much flexibility and not enough tightness.

But I was seeking to address the fallacies in your statement which dealt primarily with reduction in muscle tonus. The actual definition referrs to a physical and semi-permenant change to the mobility of the joint, which causes it to lose stability, not as you have defined it as a very temporary physiological effect.

On a side note if you stretched your hammies out for an hour the next day you would find that you would have the opposite effect to what you are suggesting. The muscles would be hypertonic due to muscle damage and golgi protection mechanisms seeking to stabilitze the joint from the over laxity which YOU tim are anticipating. Donā€™t believe me? Take it up with Vladamir Janda.

True hypermobility, unless it is disease of atrophy based, will take months if not years of flexability training day in day out - not a week, a day or an hour.

Have you ever done yoga Tim? Do they focus on one pose the entire time? Or does your entire experience with yoga originate from some a commercial where some yogi is sitting in the lotus position or with his arse behind his ears for days at a time? Because your comparison between stretching your hammies for an hour to an hour of yoga couldnot be further from the truth. Most Yoga sessions involve a series of poses held for a short duration of time, (using gravity or opposing muscle groups to create the force necessary to perform the stretch) and many transitions. The fact that the opposing muscle groups are used to create the stretch actually go along way to PREVENT true hypermobility.

Your second statement is completely rediculous and demonstrates, once again, that you donā€™t understand the phenomena which you are referring to. Soreness never came into the equasion, what was being described was A) that muscle tonus is kept high - which inhibits the development of a structural increase in length of the muscle (B) the strengthening and shortening of connctive tissue as a result of high stresses.

Sorry Tim but your definition is the one which needs revising - it may describe one facet that long term can contribute to hypermobility but not hypermobility itself.

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Unless the instructor is doing some sort of voodoo, the athlete is in control of their own body. Stretch as far and long as you want. Christā€¦most of the instructors are vegetariansā€¦not boot camp sargents.

27

Originally posted by Clemson
Unless the instructor is doing some sort of voodoo, the athlete is in control of their own body. Stretch as far and long as you want. Christā€¦most of the instructors are vegetariansā€¦not boot camp sargents.

LOL I canā€™t exactly see Moby as a Warrent Officer. This brings it back to an important point, a good instructor will keep classes smal and tailor a session to the athletes needs.

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Dazed points 1,2,3 are wrong again. My recommendation is conseling. First your telling charlie someone pulled his leg. Charlie who coached 23 world records. Now your arguing with the logic of the topic massage therapists in the country.

You can be hypermobile in more ways then one. It is referring to individualized stretches and range of motion for each one of them. You can be hypermobile in one stretch and not the other. It tests the range of motion. Anyways go argue with the top massage therapists in the country and present your case to them and they will laugh. You are right dazed your defintion is infalliable. What else do you recommend. I dont need this today please. Joint damage or whatever you said is wrong and you know it. Take it up with doc I dont have time for this.

Point golgi tendons keep your body from falling apart. So you wont break your bones or tendons when your lifting weight. A defense response. For you that would be 135 for bench pressā€¦

Stretch your hamstring for a long time and you will have to much flexibility.

The last point you thought there was a correlation between highwork load and hypermobility and you were wrong.

My last point. Should a grown man be sporting pink undies. jk. Anyways go back to the books and check it up. Maybe ask vlandamir again.

PS also seek the websters on the definition for scarcasim. Stretching for an hour a days come on now. Also there is a forum a highly reccoment you, playerhaters.com. You might wanna look into it.

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RE Hypermobility: a physical and semi-permenant change to the mobility of the joint, which causes it to lose stability. My career ending inury is of this nature. My big toe is hypermobile. And yes, this is the definition the experts will agree on. Otherwise things would become relative and nobody can agree on what the topic is.

Tim, when someone tells me something about my religion that doesnā€™t jive with me, I ask themā€¦ā€œChapter and verse?ā€ (as in where in the Bible did you get that from). Where are you getting your info from. Dazed has made his case quite sound, both with his experience and sources. I can say that someone is wrong all day, and even call them names, but without proof, I will go nowhere to win the arguement.

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Very simple answer. Hypermobility syndrome is different then hypermobility for athletes. My info comes from experts, and many hours of reading. Do I need to list them all .I will!

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List the best ones with quotes. Thank-you.

PSā€¦(different thAn hypermobility).

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Fine ill put a list together of 30 quotes from experts with sources ect.

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  1. Hypermobility: Larry Warnock (Olympic massage therapist, considered the top therapist in the united states, head of olympic massage team)

Excessive flexibility can be just as much a liability as not enough flexibility. Either one increases your risk of injury.

Once a muscle has reached its absolute maximum length, attempting to stretch the muscle further only serves to stretch the ligaments and put undue stress upon the tendons (things you DO NOT WANT TO STRETCH!) Ligaments will tear when stretched more than 6% of their normal length. Tendons are not even supposed to be able to lengthen. Even when stretched ligaments and tendons do not tear, loose joints and/or a decrease in the jointā€™s stability can occur. This greatly increases your risk of injury.

Timothys summary: You can be hypermobile without any permanent damage, which inturn will hurt performance, and increase the chance of injury. Notice doc focusses more on tendons. Also doc has charts all over his office showing hypermobitility specifically for athletes showing what a novice, average, superior, and world-class athlete should have for mobility.

34

Originally posted by Timothy Lane
Very simple answer. Hypermobility syndrome is different then hypermobility for athletes. My info comes from experts, and many hours of reading. Do I need to list them all .I will!

Actually Tim, that definition was hypermobility as a phenomenon - not specifically to syndrome or sickness. But if you would like the latter, Iā€™d be more than happy to produce it. Off to training now but Iā€™ll be on later. :slight_smile:

35

Originally posted by Timothy Lane
Dazed points 1,2,3 are wrong again. My recommendation is conseling. First your telling charlie someone pulled his leg. Charlie who coached 23 world records.

Iā€™m sorry Tim I know this is considered blasphemy in your books, you know disagreeing with Charlie on something regarding an athlete he never coached - but then again along with Carl, isnā€™t it an empirically defined fact that he would have run much faster had he been Tim?

http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?s=&threadid=544&perpage=15&highlight=carl&pagenumber=4

No doubt Iā€™ll be spending time in purgatory for such heretic views.

Now your arguing with the logic of the topic massage therapists in the country.

No Iā€™m simply disagreeing with you misinterpritation of a few massage therapists in the US. This misinterpritation in turn flys in the face of a hundred years of scientific definition, which defines hypermobility in much the same way I do. Go on, open up a medical dictionary and tell me what it says Tim.

You can be hypermobile in more ways then one. It is referring to individualized stretches and range of motion for each one of them. You can be hypermobile in one stretch and not the other. It tests the range of motion. Anyways go argue with the top massage therapists in the country and present your case to them and they will laugh. You are right dazed your defintion is infalliable. What else do you recommend. I dont need this today please. Joint damage or whatever you said is wrong and you know it. Take it up with doc I dont have time for this.

Hypermobility has nothing to do with ā€œstretchā€ itself, so iā€™ve got no idea why you keep bringing the term up as if it has some definitive purpose - hypermobility is measured in relation to the normal range of the joint. Over flexability is an entirely different matter. So far you havenā€™t refuted one point Iā€™ve made, only made personal attacks, Iā€™d say that this is why you ā€œdonā€™t have timeā€, because you canā€™t you donā€™t possess the slightest understanding required to put together the simplest of arguments.

Point golgi tendons keep your body from falling apart. So you wont break your bones or tendons when your lifting weight. A defense response. For you that would be 135 for bench pressā€¦

This is true, on all accounts. Iā€™m as weak as piss, 135kg doesnā€™t really cut it but hey, Iā€™m not a weight lifter - Iā€™m a sprinter.
You have identified ONE function of the Golgi tendon organelle, however if you actually understood their role as a proprioceptive receptor designed to measure MUSCLE TENSION. It is more receptive to contraction than stretch, however, along with the spindle fibers it plays a significant role in controlling the limits of both. Albiet spindle fibers play a greater role in controlling stretch.

Stretch your hamstring for a long time and you will have to much flexibility.

How long is a long time Tim? Is it as long as a piece of string? You mentioned a one hour duration so weā€™ll go with that. What intensity are we talking about Tim? Any way lets assume that the stretch is moderate to hard for the sake of illustration. Strtching itself does not lengthen the muscle.
During a stretch the tonus of the muscle INCREASES, when the muscle is then relaxed post stretch the muscle tone DECREASES well bellow the point which it was previous to the stretch, and then after an 8-10 seconds climbs slightly but remains lower than pre-stretch. This is the primary idea behind PNF and a part of the idea behind ART (At this point have a think as to why PNF is named thus).
Now if a stretch is held for a prolonged duration the tone of the muscle will steadily increase and plateau, after approximately 8 minutes it will release the tone (this is a function of the brain over riding the tendon organelle/nerve loop), after further prolonged stretch the tone increases once again (again as a protection mechanism) since structual damage is being risked at this point - it doesnā€™t let go and tone may not return to normal levels for several days.
This is merely a facet of the whole stretch reflex complex.

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How does Yoga expose the athlete to greater risk of ā€œnot enough tightnessā€ or hypermobility than any other form of stretching?

Iā€™d also like to add that MJā€™s hammies would have been hard due to muscle density - not tightness. Michael is one of the most flexable athletes iā€™ve ever met. Imagine a prone butterfly stretch (ie face down, feet touching, knees out to the side, thighs at 135 degrees to his body), every body groaned in pain apon seeing him lower down so that his body was also on the ground. To make matters worse, his therapist (who travels with him BTW) gently stabilised his pelvis with his knee and lifted michaels knees off the ground. Too much flexability?

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After reading your posts I actually sat down and wondered why do I even post. Is it to show charlie, and others how much I know. Im not sure. Regardless I believe people start arguements for different reasons. I had a friend who would argue over anything. Even if he wasnt right. In fact he was so good at arguing he usually would win. He would lie or do what it takes to win. Truely amazing to watch. Although he wasnt actually seeking the truth. I did respect his arguementive skills. So although I dont believe your are right here I respect your skills. Let me try and explain myself further.

Posted by dazed
Iā€™d also like to add that MJā€™s hammies would have been hard due to muscle density - not tightness.

(the post of above is dazed conclusion having never worked on michael johnson)

  1. ā€œLike a brickā€ a term dazed mocked me for.lol. As Herb is aware many people take scriptures from the bible out of context. Some knowingly do others dont. When something is taking out of context, it changes the whole meaning. Right? This term was actually something larry warnock said himself. Its like sayingā€¦ Its going to rain cats and dogs today. Literally it does not mean cats and dogs will fall from the sky. But it does mean it will rain hard. My point is doc said this, not because he doesnt understand muscle density, he said this most likely because MJ muscles were full of with waste products which made them hard on the touch. Massage slang if you will. Hard and soft muscles, massage lingo. See before you can make a statement critizing something you have to know all the facts first. Was this massage a pre or post event massage. Was it after training or a meet. Was it while he was completly fresh. Then you can make a generalization the best massage therapist in the country did not understand muscle density. I think he would have stated michael johnson is built compact! Not has dense muscles? But he didnt. To further my point there are many factors to consider when giving a massage. Tissue density, different types of tissues(epithelial, connective, muscular, nervous, and liquid tissue), also cartilage and bone tissue, the anatomical postion of each body part, body cavities and organs, structure of the skin, skeletal system, types of joints and functions/structural classification, types of mucles, hypertrophy (muscle density), or its opposite (atrophy), locations and actions of muscles,circulatory system,immune system,central nervous system, peripheral nervous system, autonomic nervous system, nerves of (neck,chest,head,face,arms,hands,abs
    back,legs, feet),endocrine glands, and hormones, digestive system, excretory system, reproductive.Ectā€¦ I havent even begun on the actually skill of a massage therapist which I will not get into now. Dazed are you a certified massage therapist? If not I wouldnt make such speculations.

Posted by dazed
Actually Tim, that definition was hypermobility as a phenomenon - not specifically to syndrome or sickness. But if you would like the latter, Iā€™d be more than happy to produce it. Off to training now but Iā€™ll be on later.

Hypermobile Syndrome is a medical term

Hypermobile is a term used by therapist for excessive flexibility

*Both words were not found in my westers dictionay

Lets take a look at the translation of the english language pre-fixs first.

Hyper: excessive, overmuch
Mobility: the state or quality of being moblie

Hypermobility: the state of quality of being excessively moblie. (as defined by the top massage therpist in the country)

posted by dazed
No Iā€™m simply disagreeing with you misinterpritation of a few massage therapists in the US. This misinterpritation in turn flys in the face of a hundred years of scientific definition, which defines hypermobility in much the same way I do. Go on, open up a medical dictionary and tell me what it says tim.

So did charliesā€¦but 100ā€™s is off been along shot!!!

History on sports massage

Massachussetts has stong links to sports massage here in the US. Six out of eight therpists which brought it to the forefront were from this state. Nice job guys. It isnt suprising that Mass is rated highest for intelligence.Three of them being jack meagher ā€œthe father of sports massageā€ larry warnock (doc) the head of US olympic massage team, and mike bolton nationally recognized expert. These eight massage therapist worked together and are responsible for the surge in sports massage in the US during the second reinssance here in the states. And also considered experts. Douglas Graham also a native of massachussetts was crowned for popularizing the word massage in America in 1875. However massage has claimed to have started 3000 bc. according to british records. And musuem history. Also was well documented as early as 500 bc by medical books. See ā€œhippocratic oathā€ A term still used today. Medical books have been documenting massage well up to this time period. Its use, practices and laws. A 100 years of research seems a bit off. Try about 3000-5000 years. This definition of hypermobility is nothing new.

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posted by dazed
Iā€™m sorry Tim I know this is considered blasphemy in your books, you know disagreeing with Charlie on something regarding an athlete he never coached - but then again along with Carl, isnā€™t it an empirically defined fact that he would have run much faster had he been Tim?

I do believe this and stated it was my opinion. Also posting links is not allowed, but mabye for moderators its different. I believe I posted in another thread I like to take a little of everything like bruce lee and combine it into my own training. But I think charlieā€™s program is second to none. How bout you.

posted by dazed
No doubt Iā€™ll be spending time in purgatory for such heretic views.

I dont believe purgary its a term that
is in the bible, verse/scripture?

ou have identified ONE function of the Golgi tendon organelle, however if you actually understood their role as a proprioceptive receptor designed to measure MUSCLE TENSION.

I didnt realize I had to name them all.

posted by dazed
How long is a long time Tim? Is it as long as a piece of string?

This can be debated. Along with every other knit picky piece of information on posts. Nothing is infalliable. Some people believe there is no such thing as time. Check some philosophers out! Interesting stuff.

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The key is to look backwardā€¦what athletes are good and who are they using? Start with the top ten in the world and list who they useā€¦

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Good point clemson, but I would have stated it,ā€¦Who has worked with the best athletes.

Again many factors, will the top guys be willing to leave there practices to work with the elite athletes. Also how often do these guys get in to see the best guys. An athlete couldnt fly to doc everyday if he lived in california. Many factors such as location, money, travel, where the coach lives/trains, and family come into play. These are factors that could keep an athlete from seeing the absolute best therpist in each field. I would define who the athlete works with as the person there with everyday. Not the one they see occassionally. I doubt all the top ten sprinters in the world have the top ten therapists in the world. Highly unlikely. Track isnt the only sport the requires massage.