or is it, that normal joe before he begins training already has high % of fast twitch fibres. he beats a few kids up and wins the shot put at school. Some bigger brute comes along and beats this guy up. Annoyed and really really angry, and that is his nature, he enters the gym. Notices that he is pretty strong compared to other kids his size. So continues to train for strenght, and yrs later makes the olympic team.
A white coat comes to visit him and takes a muscle biopsy to see what it is that makes him soo strong. He concludes that it is the correct training that caused a high percentage of fast twitch fibres.
i believe the contention of the study is that this change occurs and is not due purely to genetic factors.
“a fact which cannot be explained by the contention that specific genetic types excel at specific sports”
is it possable for a study like that to be done, without 1st doing a study on the same subjects Before they even start training? Otherwise the study is really just Assuming?
also, do these same studies, look at tendon placement onto the bodes? creating more efficient mechanical levers? i would Assume that perhaps makes more of a difference to a persons Natural strength, speed or endurance that fibre type?
Also, they are finding out that some 10k ellite runners have more fast twith fibres than red!! there is something there than can cause arguments and baffell the labs. If fibre type is all that they look at!
in your second paragraph your bring up some point that while valid dont really pertain to the discussion and therfore add to the complexity of the model.
i believe that the change across the board in muscle fiber type was so similar that they could make the assertion that it was caused by training and not simply genetics. for example if everyone in the population fits it to the scheme that would gretly rule out the posiblity of it being purely genetic.
neither is this discussion in relation to CNS fatigue!!
i believe peoples events are largly chosen for them. you learn early on what evens you are good at! I dont for one second believe that everybody is born equal. thats balonie. many people choose the wrong event for them and dont become elite. many choose the right event but dont do the right or correct training.
then there are those that choose the right event, do the right training at the right time, and become elite.
its hard to predict at a young age what even you will be good at though, with young kids there hormons are all over the place and develop at different ages. So the small skinny kid could grow up to be naturally muscular and powerfull by 18yrs or so?? how do you tell at 10yrs of age?
I dont doubt that training causes changes, but that saying elite athletes would be just totally normal without the training is crazy.
Look at the people who can run low 11’s without training!
or those than can run sub 20 5klm
or those that can bench 100kg
It took me ages to be able to bench 100kg for instance, yet others without any training can do it!! At least i am only half there weight! lol
There is no way in the world, natural or not, that i could ever become say a bodybuilder at elite level. I am not built that way. Others can within 6months of training, be looking closer to what a bodybuilder does than i can after yrs of training. Thats genitics.
Same with running. I know many people that are good 5 and 10k runners. But no matter what they do for speed, they can only just break 60sec for 400. And i know some cannot!! They learned early on that they cannot run fast, everybody would beat them. but if they trained right, they could do rather well in distance races.
Im sure there is a slight change in msucle fibre, one that helps give you that bit of an edge. but you have what you have. work on your strengths. perhaps your not very explosive but still run fast. would you work on your starts and minimize your top speed, or work on your top speed and minimze your starts?
If one could change their fibre type, and that made them perform so much better, would there not be hundreds of people running sub 10sec, sub 20secs sub 13minute 5k??
Or perhaps the world has created a lot of poor performing people to run pretty good, not great, but pretty good times by the way of changing muscle fibre type?
dud where the hell are you comming from with this. no one ever said people are or are not genetically predisposed to a given sport or event. the study i was presenting simply was to show that training effects isoform expression. will some people have more fast twtich no matter what ofcourse. but training does effect fiber compostion. its been proven with before and after biopsys.
and no there would not be hundreds of people running sub 10 simply because sprinting performance is composed of many other factors. the big one being neurological factors which only come about from proper training.
So if the big factor to sub-10 is neurological factors which come from proper training…why can only a handful of people on the face of the earth do it? And then why doesn’t anyone Jay coaches run sub-10? Because they are busy training to run 10.30 50 times in one day?
neurology is a major factor in all athletics regardless the event or sport. at all levels and especially at elite levels improvment comes from a host of neurological factors. training is not the only way neurology is established for example the feedforward system, that which is used for motor control in balistic activities is developed to during the ages 4 and 7. simply because one is developed neurologically does not change the fact that other factors come into play this is why we have a whole spectrum of athletic ability. and to your last question. NO.
So would you do any specific preparatory training if you had a 4 to 7 year old kid whose goal was to run fast one day?
thats wut i plan to do with my kid lol. i think there are things that parents can do to encourage adventageous motor patterns.
to clarity “isoform expression”
do you mean in simple terms, that training as eg, fast, that fast fibers become bigger and activate faster v’s slow fibers become either smaller from lack of use or stay the same and that the transitonal fibres take on what the training stimulas is, ie fast acting and bigger??
is that what you are saying?
Are you also saying, as an example, that say you train for yrs as a distance runner, then one day stop and change to become a 100m guy. After lots of training, the slower fibers become weaker and the faster one bigger and faster, and the transitional fibers do what? stay the same, ie slow and shrink due to lack of use, or grow faster and bigger and take on the new training stimulas?
Or are you saying something totally different.
Or just bringing up old high school stuff, i remember reading that yrs ago at grade school.
im a little confused by the question its a bit jumbled but i think i get what your getting at. every muscle fiber in the body has the genetic code for each type of fiber type. fibre type is expressed through the myosin of the same fiber. so there may be the myosin for type 2b or 1 or 2a there are more but we will keep it to these. basically train under condtions which require preferable fast twtich selection and to a degree, and over time the type2b myosin will express itself. to what degree is unknown. ofcourse your not going to change your entire bodily fiber compostion to favor fast twtich but it can be affected with intense, proper training for an extended period of time.
Perhaps I confused you by including multiple answers with different outcomes?
So, are your saying, that even slow twitch fibres under training of speed and power, take on some form of fast twitch fibre, and hence the slow fibres actually grow larger and act faster?
they will to a limited extent. it has been shown is studies that if a slow twitch fiber if innervated by a fast twtich motor neuron it will dsiplay fast twitch traits.
I’d say there are three answers to this;
1: It’s possible to affect the contractile velocity of ST to some degree via demand, particularly EMS, which reverses the recruitment order, forcing the ST to catch up to the FT instead of the other way around.
2: ST fibre that can’t adapt gets left behind sooner over time as it becomes unable to continue to contribute to contractile forces generated by FT fibres sooner and sooner in the contraction cycle as the contractions get more and more intense and rapid.
3: As innervation deternimes fibre type, greater heat within muscle lowers electrical resistace allowing smaller neurons to act like larger ones. More heat is created through more training via greater vascularization around the fibre, greater density, and hypertrophy creating a greater volume to surface area ratio, all working to generate more heat.
All factors could account for changes in the nature and relative proportion by weight/vol of overall muscle make-up even before accounting for any changeover in fibre type and the fibre splitting of FT due to extremely intense sessions.
i too believe in hyperplasia. but i think it would only occur in athletes with years of training under very intense and proper condtions, such as sprinting and training that replicates the effect of sprinting (high load, high velocity).
I the sound of this quote. That you can actually get a percentage of slow twitch fibres to respond much quicker through EMS.
Hence, regular use can help one out with what mother nature left out! Or what regular distance running created?
I have only just got my ems leads fixed and can use it. have only been using the machine as a Tens machine, and getting reading for its use as ems once SPP in around.
would you be able to elaborate further on this?
hyperplasia.
thanks :rolleyes: