Yes that is my opinion. As would other illnesses such as IBS or Chrons disease.
Very probably.
Adrenal Fatigue is quite different from CNS stress and depending on the level can be recovered quite quickly.
They are very dependent on one another and are very much linked together in most instances, but there are distinctions.
Certain adaptogens can be used to regenerate aspects of the Adrenal System.
ive used charlies methods, do they work ? yes. what am i trying to do present a different set of ideas. im not saying charlie is wrong im saying simply there is another way. i swear to god i dont think you guys are reading my posts and all you see is 47 maximum lifts in a day. you guys arent listening. so ill say it again. with normal training parameters you can not train in thsi fashion. you want to know an athlete, how about adam archuleta, todd heap, steven trejo, and terell suggs. this is not my training system its jay schroeders and if you had been reading you would have seen me mention that. a lot of you guys really dont get it. i can tell you dont get it becasue you dont respond to the one point that i make about why this is possible.
your still conceiving to that metaphoric pool as reality. something that can be drained. so to you a greater level of ability means that the individual can do less work. ill say it again… IF YOU TRAIN IN A NORMAL FASHION THIS IS TRUE, BUT NOT IF YOU CHANGE HOW YOU TRAIN TO BREAK DOWN THOSE NUEROLOGICAL INHIBTIONS. YOU MUST TRAIN TO TRAIN IN THIS MANNER!!! how about a 530 bench press 47 times in a single session at a body weight of 210, no wraps, no suit, no shirt, no bullshit. IT CAN BE DONE PEOPLE. why because there is NO pool of resources for the cns to drain. or if there is its not a major contributing factor to fatigue. YES THERE IS CNS FATIGUE you guys act like i say that there isnt.
It can be done on Schroeder’s special editing dvds. How long was this one session 1 year? Most of the worlds top weightlifters and power lifters use these technqiues also:)
I can bench press 80Kg 47 times in one session but thats only cos i can usually bench 110 on a bad day. Was 530 a pb? If it was then i have no idea how that was done.
530 was his max then i have no idea what it is now nor do i think it matters much.
James,
So your saying he could bench 530lb which was his max, and get it 47 outta 50 times with as little as 6 seconds between some attempts, yet he couldnt get 532.5 once???
exactly, he has the ability to repeat his maximum ability over and over again. thats what he trained for. if you talk to jay he will tell you thats what they trained for. no being able to jump high once or run a 40 once or bench or squat once but to be able to do it over and over and over and over again. becasue in athletics thats what needed. what is football? at its essence nothing more than repeated explosive efforts. so u can bench 530 once… so what a football game has atleast 35 plays. so you can jump a 40 inch vert once, so what a soccer game may require you to jump 20 times. thats what they trained for, being able to use what they have gained over and over and over again.
First off, don’t compare bench (using 35% of Motor Units) to Sprints (using virtually 100% of Motor Units).
Second, if you can do 47 reps at 530 but can’t do 532, in what possible way is this of any use in ADVANCING PERFORMANCE? Why would anyone want to train like hell to to perform 47 reps of 100m in 11.00 and nothing better?
Who wants to set a World Record for stagnation.
first off i didnt comapre the two.
second youve got it backwards hes not holding back his max hes learned to express it many times over with short rest periods. why would anyone not want to be able to do this. if you can bench 500 lbs wouldnt you want to be able to do it at anytime you wished. if you could run a 4.3 40 wouldnt you want to be able to run it at anytime, multiple times. i dont know about you but if i was a football scout i would want to guy that can run a fast 40 multiple times not the guy that could do it only once. why? because a football game isnt a single play.
this is true, football is a required effort sports. Not sure about american football?? but in australia one would be better suited to being a 800m runner speed/endurance with a strong weights background. They do lots of small fast runs/attacks/defecnce and lots of jogging forwards and backwards. hence most fast football players over here are i believe about 11sec speed, and thats the fast ones. But there 40yard would indicate faster i bet?? They dont need mass amounts of pure speed, if they get a break, they would be lucky to run at full speed for 40-50m. And they noticably slow up doing that!
How what you relate things too would be good for the footballer i can see, reapeted efforts at there max. I have been there and done that too, being a 800m runner at 1.50 shape. I have done 3x400’s in a training session where the 3rd 400 was a personal best. But, even though the 400 was ok for a 800m runner, it was usless if i wanted to be a 400m runner.
I could do 20 x 200m (29sec)efforts all at the same pace with only 30-60sec recovery, yet at the time could not run faster than 24sec.
Dont get confused with what you are training for or how you are training for it. Since you are at the moment only doing weights, what you are really doing is training like a 800m runner but in the weights.
An example of speed, once i started doing competitions, i was fast enough to be included in 4x100 relay teams. Enough speed to scare the 100m guys. yet really, i was not in decient shape speed wise to run the 100m properally. Maybe 10.8? But i was not training for the 100, it was the 800. And i still in the off season acheived a regional record in the 8klm in 24.3.
If you can understand what i am saying, i could do My max efforts, repeat them when i needed to, and produce a decient time in my event. yet, i was far from fast enough due to what training i was doing to be able to acheive a 100m time compairable to my 800m.
I doubt you could convince me that what you are doing will produce a sub 10sec guy.
I hear you, loud and clear. Although I cannot imagine why you euphemize such an approach?
Somehow I fail to see the meaningfulness of this when going into the realms of track and field. The competition schedule I fixed and ultimately what matters is your absolute highest performance in one single competition (the whole summer is important but one will stand out from the rest). So why an earth would anyone in t&f train in the way you suggest? Are you seriously suggesting Asafa Powell can run 9.77 every day? You might not, because “he has not trained in the way that would make it possible”! But really, don’t be silly… would he have trained so that he would be able to sprint at max every day, he would never have reached 9.77 in the first place; we might be talking about 10.77 or worse.
Despite Adam being able to perform 47x 530, doesn’t mean one can, or even should, try to perform in such a fashion in the sprint or in the jumps. It does not happened, not when performance level is high enough. “Train to train”… it’s hard enough to achieve elite performance levels once in a lifetime, not to mention when it counts, not to mention having a good season… there’s no time to even contemplate such an approach, and besides, it would probably be just a waist of time – one hundredth of a second can decide the winner.
Let’s not be confused by the odd numbers of Adam’s bench… If I would be a bencher, I would rather be able to do 660, and then be able to play around with 530 however I wanted to.
I still reiterate: when complexity and intensity goes up (t&f), we are talking about totally different CNS demands than simple bench, even squat or plyometrics. Do not compare them to sprinting or jumping with full speed… not when the ONLY decisive parameter is the RESULT. It’s not about being able to repeat… it’s about being able to even once reach such time or distance.
If your goal is to withstand CNS stress, perhaps you will see results, as the way you describe, using such an explicit approach. If your goal is to reach maximal absolute performance (time & distance), then you must train differently… simple as that. The first option is almost never available for track & field athletes. The second option requires a different approach to CNS demand and recovery.
I have wrote one extensive reply to all of this stuff here… but… damn :mad: … I accidentally closed the window and lost it… damn!!!
Waiting to “cool down” (I am really mad), and to write it again… son of a b***h! :mad:
Thanks for that, very interesting
I am having trouble understanding how u have calculated the density measure! How did u come up with the .625 figure? If you could elaborate on this that would be great!
Also, for the engagement figure do you have a list of the appropriate %'s for specific lifts and speed related activities such as sprinting and plyo’s?
I copy my posts in progress so I don’t lose the whole thing if something happens.
Sorry I was rushing … (and I left out a zero too!)
Density is the work done in the training period as the longer the rest the more time the athlete has to regenerate the CNS.
So 3 reps, 5 sets
Rep tempo - 2, 1, 1, 1 - 5 sec
(We are disregarding the fact that slower eccentric phases are more cns demanding)
Rest between sets 180 mins
Total Time trg = 5 (work) secs * 3 (reps) = 15 secs (total work per set) + 180 secs (rest) = 195 (total time per set) * 5 sets = 975 secs per session = 16.25 minutes
Being realistic - Lets say rounded up it equal 20 mins or 1200 secs
So Work done = 5 secs * 3 = 15 * 5 = 75 secs work in 1200 secs which equals = .0625
(That’s were I missed the zero)
So Density = 0.0625
This is becasue I personally regard Density as a far more sensible measurement than volume - which could mean anything really!
Engagement figures can be taken direct from Charlies books - I think Forum Review - would that be right?
Like I said its more an experiment on my part and a useful guide NOT a rule by any manner or means.
As was pointed out to me (and as Charlie does) most coaches use common sense, close monitoring of athletes, experience and avoid CNSF.
The ability to do repeated 4.3s is good. with speed reserve, an athlete could do a 4.2 if a rare occasion called for it, one without it couldn’t. I also have worked with NFL players who can maintain performance through the game, relying on fitness and speed reserve.
I fail to grasp how you can say that someone who can BP a given weight over and over but go no higher is expressing his POTENTIAL max- although it clearly is his plateau in reality.
This completely ignores one of the fundamentals of the ability to repeat required performance- speed or strength reserve above that required performance. How can it be ideal training to ignore one of the means to improve?
i think youve got it backwards charlie. your saying that because he can bench his max so much he is limiting himself simply becasue he can bench it os often. but in reality at a certain point in his training he was able to do this with whatever weight was his current max. your thinking “if he can do it and do it do often he must be able to bench more if he had more rest” but in realiity his system can facilitate recovery regeneration or whatever you would like to call it fast enough for him to repeat the effort. now you keep on stating that you cant compare it to sprinting that a bench press and a sprint are so different when it comes to cns output, but if you follow this line of thinking the same thing can be achieved in the sprint. because fatigue is due to inhibtion not the absence of necessary substrates (neurotransmiters etc.) now is asafa going to run 9.77 every day, probably not because a lot of factors need to be in place for him to perform at this level. but can he run close to his maximum on a regular basis yes, if his system is equipped to do so. now you asked “what benefit does this have to track and field” we all know that in track it is a singular effort. but it can be very helpful in training. i like to concieve of all excercise as neurological drills. you are training the neuroligy to get a desrired outcome. in this respect the nervous system is more like a computer that requires reinforcment. repeated efforts requiring high levels of rate coding and high levels of motor unit recruitment will hav a transfer over to singualr efforts which require the same traits. so just like you may have your athlete do high knees to instil proper knee elevation, you can use this method to instil proper motor control.
CNS Fatigue
by DuXx
It is little „phylosophical“ and I hope I will not be banned or declared mad! 
On my own opinion, to understand fatigue mechanism and phenomena, one should first understand the teleology (purpose) of the same. But, before we dig into the teleology of fatigue, lets first define CNS.
CNS stands for Central Nervous System. Anatomically CNS represent brain, medulla oblongata & medulla spinalis. CNS has a lot of functions, and some of them are to coordinate and control musculoskeletal system, provide perception of outter/inner-world, emotional function, learning, intelectual processes etc. Someone actually says that human Soul is in the brain itself, altought I don’t believe in that. On my opinion (which is very related to Descartes Dualism) Consciousness and Free Will are something that is not material — it is spiritual — and are not the result of complex neural functions and activity. Counsciousness and Free will are the exclussive characteristics of human Soul. Note that the perception of the outter world depends on your deep beliefs (paradigm). Change your paradigm, and the whole world will change!
ANS stands for Autonomic Nervous System. ANS is little harder to anatomically locate, because various organs have their own centres, and various ANS centres are outside of CNS. ANS have also various number of functions, but one of them is to coordinate and control the function of human organs. During this discussion, I will reffer to both ANS and CNS as C/ANS because their interconnection and interrelation.
For the purposes of this discussion, C/ANS should be looked as the Integrator of the other systems of the body.
As every system has a purpose, human body (mind/body) has also the purpose of its existance ---- (1) to provide a living frame for the „owner“ ---- (2) to provide actions/interractions with outher world (perception/action)
For body to maintain a life of the „owner“ it must also maintain its Integrity. Note that the Integrity is very hard defined, but it can be viewed as narrow state-space, called homoeostais. The exmple of homoeostasis variables are blood sugar level, temperature, hydration etc. They must be kept in narrow ranges to keep body alive.
The body provides actions to outter world by activating musculoskeletal system (walk, speak, move…). Note that as the action is provided, that same action tend to disturb Integrity. For example, when you run/walk you tend to spend energy in your muscles. As you continue to do that, finally your cardiovascular system starts to bring oxygen and nutrients to the active muscles to keep the Integrity. Basically, all other systems are there to support Actions of musculoskeletal system.
As the activity continues (by increasing) its intensity, C/ANS activates more and more the muscluloskeletal system, but also activates other system to keep the body’s Integrity. As already stated, the purpose is to provide Integrity and Interaction. But the integrity is the priority number one, because if the body dies — there would be no Interraction.
So, as the „owner“ provides a decision for activity, C/ANS first decides will it disturb Integrity to allow Activity. As the activity starts, supporting systems are activated. If the support systems are unable to keep the Integrity — then the Action is altered.
For example, progressive running test. You start to run slow, your musculoskeletal system provide Action — Power Output and thus performance or speed. In the same time other supportive systems are activated — cardiovascular, thermoregulatory and respiratory — to keep Integrity of the body. As the intensity of the run increases, C/ANS increase both Activity (Power Output of musculoskeletal system) and Integrity (supporting systems). In the same time C/ANS gets the information from inner-world and tranfer it to Counsciousness as RPE. After reaching a certrain speed, your supportive systems are not able to support Integrity, and to maintain it C/ANS decreases Power Output — Action of the muscluloskeletal system. Integrity may be threated from various sources — for example, to „work“, your supportive systems also needs energy, your heart and respiratory muscles need oxygen. If their functioning is threated, which can eventually lead to death — the activity is stopped. So, the „limiting factors“ may be the heart, may be the muscle, may be anything that present the biggest threat for the Integrity — but the one is sure — the „thing“ that stops activity is none of them — it is C/ANS — the ULTIMATE LIMITING FACTOR! So, training to increase Pumping volume of the heart, muscle oxydative capacity to improve performance may be misleading!
Acording to this, the purpose of fatigue is to PROTECT the Integrity of the body! Fatigue starts at the onset of exercise.
Fatigue is actually protective mechanism that protects the body’s Integrity form it’s Action.
Someone may point to the Hunter/Hunted situation, when extremly performances — Power Output (Action) are done when you are chased by wild animal, or when your kid is stucked under the car. As stated before, Integrity is complex. If you are eaten, you will lose your Integrity. If you loose your child, you will lose your Integrity (familly). Representation of integrity may be both physical and psychical.
Fatigue can be unvisible (same level of performance — Action — but increase in Will Power to C/ANS to push the supportive mechanism and action mechanisms) and visible (level decrement due protection).
C/ANS fatigue is scientifically defined as the failure of muscle recruitment. It is basically measured by comparing forces during MVC and EMS (twitch superimposition test). In C/ANS fatigue, muscles are able to provide force—action, but C/ANS is not willing to recruit them.
On my opinion there are two „types“ of C/ANS fatigue:
[u]LO C/ANS Fatigue[/u]
LO C/ANSF happend during prolonged submax actions. When you run a marathon, and your glycogen levels (or any other homoeostasis variable) tend to drop too seriously, C/ANS will decrease Action — Power Output — Speed by decreasing muscle actiovation, which can be viewed with reduced EMG levels.
Note that this don’t happens at once. As you start the activity, glyco levels start to decline (temp start to raise etc), and you are de-stimulated by the perception of RPE to stop the activity. If your will power is strong, you will push C/ANS to increase both (or to keep same level of) Activity and Integration. When your Integrity is really at threat RPE perceprion will become very large, and you C/ANS will totally decrease or even stop futhe muscle activation. Note, that peripheral fatigue may or may not be present. Peripheral fatigue is impairment of musculoskeletal system to generate power at the same recruitment of C/ANS. This may be the „local“ control mechanism.
[u]HI C/ANS Fatigue[/u]
HI C/ANS Fatigue happens during repating maximal activities like 1RM lift, sprints etc. Note that maximal performance is already limited by anticipated Integrity threat by C/ANS — There is allway a reserve which is saved for Hunter/Hunted situations.
I have stated that one of the purposes of C/ANS is to coordinate and integrate all the systems of the body. In maximal activities this integrative/coordinative function is at high-end of its capacity. Power Output is maximal (with a reserve) and thus Integrity functions are at near maximal level — this demands a troumendous Coordinate/Integrate function of the C/ANS.
At the start of HI activity, musculoskeletal system will be potentiated due the need for maximal performance by the actions of hormones and some internal properties of muscle cells (improvement of Ca+ mechanism in Reticulum etc). With this potentiation, Power Output will be higher with the same recruitment. This will improve performance.
As the repeats of HI activities continue, potentiation will eventually decrease and fatigue will increse, reaching critical drop-off point, when the performance will start to decline. Now (and even before) is time to stop the HI activity (training). But what is the mechanism of this kind of fatigue — protective mechanism?
On my opinion, in HI C/ANSF the need for great Integrative/Coordinative function of C/ANS will eventually be „drained“ — thus the C/ANS will eventually shut down all systems to prevent itself from damage (Intgrity of itself). So, on my opinion, HI C/ANS Fatigue is the protective mechanism of the C/ANS, not to protect some peripheral system, but to protect itself from damage.
After the activity ceases, the athlete may be still in potentiated state, but after some time, the fatigue will overpower it and the athlete will sense great „drain“. The shut down of C/ANS (to protect and recover itself) will eventually affect all other systems – thus the wholistic effect of HI C/ANS fatigue.
It is interesting to note the Delayed effect of HI C/ANS Fatigue — in LO C/ANS fatigue, as soon as athlete recover temperature, hydration, glycogen, the simmilar level of performance may be repeated (except Marathon due muscles injuries which demands long time to heal). During Tempo workout athlete may feel „drained“ after it, but after 2-4 hours, the athlete may repeat it with same performance.
This is not the case with HI C/ANS fatigue. After finishing HI workout (sprints, 1RM lifts), the athlete is still potentiated and feels excellent. But hours later, the athlete will sense great fatigue — thus delayed phenomena of HI C/ANS fatigue. This may be due lowering of potentiation, but I think it is rather in shuting down of C/ANS to allow repair/recovery of itself. The C/ANS can be also fatigued/impaire by doing great Coordinative/Integrative function (sometime due great emotions etc), not just other systems. This may be refferef to „CNS pool“, but this is oversimplification. I still don’t know the various versions of C/ANS fatigue if critical point is reached or it is not in preceeding training.
It is pretty easy to undestand the „shut-down“ of the C/ANS to allow itself recovery, but why did it waited to do it so long? Maybe A/CNS expected another HI activity (another chase by the animal) or it allowed other systems to recover firts… I don’t know!
What I would love to know is apparent contradiction in CFTS, that the second HI activity should be performed right after or 4h after the first. But the time frame btw two HI activites is about 48-72h?
Note that begginers, and lower recruitment activities may not induce HI C/ANS fatigue, because of lower level of Coordinative/Integrate function of C/ANS!
If the begginers do 1RM, they will recover fast and induce only LO C/ANS fatigue, because they aren’t able to tax their C/ANS system.
Doing 5-10RM to failure may actually create HI C/ANS fatigue, due great recruitment at the last rep and great tax to the C/ANS (Coordination/Integre function) in high level athletes, but it can also induce LO C/ANS fatigue and peripheral fatigue — This remains to be discussed.
[u]Topic for futher discussion:[/u]
Hope this all makes some sense!
Please note that Integration and Integrative functions are NOT the same. Integration reffers to conceptual phenomena of maintainig homoeostasis, while Integrative is the function of C/ANS to coordinate all the other systems!
o boy lol duxx you always come through big time, this will take some study.