Interesting debate material. You are looking at sticking points as an inability to exert force for a duration long enough to overcome the halt in movement.
CT has addressed this in max/sub max eccentrics and iso holds.
If you increase the amount of time you can strain against a given amount of weight than you increase a component of strength endurance.
Does Increasing Strength endurance, be it isometric, dynamic, or eccentric have an effect on increasing limit strength?
As far as whether performing limit work in the +6 second range, again CT has found the supra max eccentrics and max iso holds have a positive effect on limit strength, however these are tools to be incorporated into ME work DE work and Repetition method work.
As you know, Special exercises have been tried and tested along with AR methods. Between varied box heights, pin pulls/presses, board presses, all with or without chains, bands, weight releasers, one has numerous means to overcome weaknesses (sticking points). These are the methods which I have employed, with great success, to overcome weaknesses.
“Interesting debate material. You are looking at sticking points as an inability to exert force for a duration long enough to overcome the halt in movement.
CT has addressed this in max/sub max eccentrics and iso holds.”
—listen to my latest Audioblog on RL…great points jman316.
I have read this thread and have been pleased with the deep thought and seious tone. CF.com is a valuable resource and this should be a thread that makes the “classics” section. From what I have seen in the sports performance world is the lack of GPP or the errors in volume and intensity in the GPP. It entertains me the great microcycles people create with various AR, TUT, CNS adjusments, AREG, and so on but fail to see the entire Macrocycle.
I think success comes from the rotation of components, placement of the intensification, blending of the phasesm, and adjustment of volume. What may look like a great program in an isolated week or month may cause problems during championships.
Maximum strength is important and sprinters should look at ways to safely and effectively improve it. WSB are getting results and have great ideas…if I use only a handfull of what they do with athletes then fine.
You’re the reason I hate the internet and MB’s and why I don’t post often…sooner, rather than later, it becomes personal. The tone of your post is unecessarily personal. First, you are ignoring my technical points, especially concerning “duration”.
As to your points re: the split, you come across a bit arrogant. Your numbers, given your previous weightlifting experience are pedestrian. Not that mine are better but my point is; I am 39, with only 9 years of serious tranining. I can hit my 400 bench w/o a shirt and I can squat and d/l over 6 anytime during the year w/o a suit. So don’t pooh pooh me and say I “misapplied” the system. WSB got me those numbers. So, I partially endorse WSB.
Congugate system for powerlifting? Fair enough. Then we’re not talking WSB are we? Because I’m addressing the 4 workouts in 7 days.
I’m sure your knowledge is greater than mine (after all, you have left no room for any such doubt by the arrogant tone of your post)…and I’m sure I’ll never be the lifter you are, but why don’t we address the technical points with substance. Any damn fool can type that a certain split is failing for them b/c they are not “It is NOT too much. You must account for biological variability and manipulate the volume to accomodate your training age, age, levers, weaknesses, recovery ability, etc…” LMFAO. Gobbledygook bullshit. Because sir, the minute I do the foregoing, I stop training on the 7 day split!!! And let me say this; better lifters than you and I have modified the WSB 7 day split outward with great results. So, in my generalized way (what you say), are all these superior lifters (unaided) wrong when they modified the training split? Or were they merely “accounting for biological variability and manipulate the volume to accomodate your training age, age, levers, weaknesses, recovery ability, etc…” I had to quote that one again because once you consider what you’ve written, you realize it contributes ZERO to the dialogue and is the biggest “GENERALIZATION” thus far.
And one other point sir, you seem intelligent; so read and comprehend. I went from a 185lb basketball player to a 275lb pretty strong guy with shitty leverages. All the while, I did it on WSB and the 7 day template. DO YOU REALLY THINK I’M PUTTING THE SYSTEM DOWN?
I wish this wasn’t personal, but guys like you are the reason I’m loathe to discuss ANYTHING on the internet.
Why don’t we have a friendly bet; I’ll come down to 242 and we’ll both compete at a meet head to head, RAW. Let’s see who has been training “wrong”. Pompous Ass. I’m sure I’ve made mistakes in my training along the way I wouldn’t make with a good coach or ever a good partner like yourself, but I “aint exactly stupid”. One correction though; I throw around 275lb to loosely because it has been my weight, thereabouts, for years but mostly its the weight class in powerlifting. I’m actually 265 or so now leaning out for the summer, and still making strength gains because I modified the 7 day split. Point is, I can make the 242. The bigger point is; Sir, please keep it from being personal; I’m here on a fact finding mission and I prize your mind and input as much as LS, DB Hammer, CT, CF themselves…there is no reason to get personal. Besides, powerlifting is never gonna pay you a penny, and I defintely won’t make a penny off it. So, let’s keep our “sport”, and this discussion, in relative perspective.
It seems I took your post personal and went immediately to a dick measuring contest. I won’t go back and edit b/c it was my first reaction. If I’m wrong about your post, forgive me. But right now, I don’t have the time or inclination to edit it.
A better post James. Maybe I misjudged you First, I agree with the various means of AR and have employed them all. However, if we follow WSB, and it appears we do, think back to all your real “work” on DE and ME days…be it singles, doubles or triples. All of that work is, for me at least and I assume alot of others, under 9 seconds let’s say.
To illustrate, I can take any of the AR movements, let’s use 3 board press for example, on a ME day, and I will get my 3 rep max in under 9 seconds. This example illustrates similar lifts, in the time continuum, across the board, regardless of movement, AR employment, DE or ME day, etc. Think about it; all of our work, except for submaximal repetition work, is done well under 9 seconds.
I don’t know the answer. But DB Hammer just makes alot of sense to me when he shifts the “sticking point” paradigm to an issue of “duration”, if you will, from “weak point”.
I think its fantastic if my max bench will go up in 1.5 seconds. But wouldn’t we both take an extra 50lbs on that max bench if it went up in 3 seconds? Or even 4? 5? I’d say yes each time.
Bottom line; I think CT and DB Hammer are onto something. I also think those principles can easily be incorporated into the WSB template or, conjugate system. And James, forgive my earlier response, I’m just short of patience lately and the internet, wonderful tool that it is, is too often a place to say or do things you wouldn’t do in person - kinda like how people act when driving a car :). I’d love to learn from you. Thanks.
When you beat me at 242 (your bench is “great”, not pedestrian), you have to go outside and race me in the 40 and play me one on one in basketball. Yup, now that would be fair
James, another interesting point on the “duration” factor of interest to guys like you and I. At 6.1 also, it doesn’t sound like you’re “built to bench”. DB Hammer espouses that for us longer limbed lifters, duration is again of paramount concern. You know the bench press formula for super sucess; big chest, short arms, short stroke. We have a long stroke. Setting aside, for the moment, the need to exhibit force, guys like us, comparatively speaking, need more “duration” than a better leveraged lifter. It just makes so much sense to me. If it’s wrong, I’d like to know why and where.
By the way, as an aside to our discussion, since we’re both powerlifters (and I use the term loosely with myself b/c I haven’t found the time to compete in over 4 years ), I am making terrific gains using DB’s AREG stuff…I’m making 6% + jumps in performance from workout to workout. I just can’t ignore this kind of progress at my development. Now, I am mindful that much of the progress is coming in special movements DB prescribes so in essence, I consider some of it “newbie gains”, comparatively speaking. The real proof will be in what transfer, if any, they have to the conventional lifts. I’ll keep ya posted. Maybe you can chide me out of “retirement” by getting my lazy ass to a meet.
Steve, that is the first reaming I have taken on this website. I am in agreement with you with respect to the misinterperetations that become commonplace and therefore lead to personal offenses taken on MB’s. HOWEVER, the only direct statement I made was not to judge the WSB program for everyone, based only upon your own personal experieces.
So, I would like to think that you either 1. were already pissed off, or 2. possibly, ironically, took my post personally yourself. I welcome the concept of agreeing to disagree, but I would bet that all others reading our exchange would view your post as the lighter fluid, not mine.
Moving on…
My comment on accounting for biological variability via training age, age, levers, recovery ability, etc…was meant to suggest that all of these variables may be addressed and therefore the training parameters may be manipulated within the “confines” of a 7 day training week. This is what my training partner and I have done for the past year.
Now, after competing in the APF central states and consulting with Chad Aichs, a 1000lb (drug free) squatter, I was persuaded to extend the 7 day split into a 12 day split. I, however, still consider myself to be training WSB style (albeit the modifications).
The 12 day split is working very well. I hit a 495 2board (shirt) the other day which was a 15lb pr and a 635 (2-3in above parallel) box squat ( with belt and suit witht the straps down). I too am hitting pr’s every training week, although I haven’t calculated the percent increase week to week as you have.
It is righteous that you are experiencing gains by employing DB’s ideas. My intentions are only to illustrate that there are many ways to manipulate the WSB template in order to overcome plateaus. To me, this even means incorporating the training ideas of other systems (i.e., metal militia). However, in my mind I am still training Westside style for the singular reason that the foundations of my program construction are firmly based in WSB principles.
I am not very well read with respect to DB’s ideas, therefore, I cannot discuss the efficacy of his concepts with respect to powerlifting.
I don’t know where you are located, but if you are ever inspired enough or get a chance, take a trip to San Diego. I not only accept your challenge of going head to head as 242’s but I am also highly confident that I could assist you with developing higher strength levels.
If you are willing to walk the talk then meet me September 5 at the AAPF (drug tested) meet in Las Vegas. Judgement day is upon you. LOL! However, I will be wearing gear.
Guess you didn’t read my apologies. Anyway, I consider myself a WSB trainee too. I don’t want to clog up this board with points I’ve already made about altering the system. Not sure we disagree. Would like to hear about your 12 day split. I also conceded you were the better lifter b/c of your bench…but I’d spank you in the squat and deadlift and I don’t need a suit that three of my partners have to help me into either to do it Enough of the dick measuring…I started it so fair enough. I’m on the East Coast or I’d love to “walk the walk” with you, and moreover, learn whatever I could from you. Good luck at your meet. If my fingers smell of lighter fluid, guilty as charged.
I’d like to know more about your bench stroke length and if you’re built similar to me, what you’ve done to build such a respectable bench. Thanks.
Who said adding bands means resistance in the outer range is 90-100%? 90-100% of Full squat? 90-100% of 1/2 Squat?
If maximum power output in the full squat occurs at 50-60% of maximum FULL squat wouldn’t maximum power output in the 1/2 squat occur at 50-60% of maximum 1/2 squat (NOT 50-60% of maximum FULL squat) and maximum power output of 1/4 squat occur at 50-60% of maximum 1/4 squat(NOT 50-60 of max FULL squat). The bands could maximize power output by allowing the use of 50-60% loads at various points of the lift. ie max full squat is 200kg load at bottom position is 100kg, max 1/2 squat is 250kg load at 1/2 squat position is 100kg weight + 25kg band tension, max 1/4 squat is 300kg load at 1/4 squat position is 100kg weight + 50kg band tension. It seems to me the use of bands allows one to try to stay at max power range through more of the movement.
To say this type of training is inferior to jump squats or bench throws is comparing two different types of strength training.
Is this training appropriate for sprinters? If there is a phase where they want to work on max power output it is. Perhaps to develop power for the start?
I have a question. It appears to me that Westside goes about neural training via ME and DE movements, then hypertrophy training to develop muscle for the neural improvements to use via assistance work(ie 3x10 Glute Ham Raises). Is this correct and could it be applied to other modes of training…
ME lifts (if 1RM’s are performed) test maximum strength levels. DE lifts develop speed strength.
Supplemental and assistance lifts build strength and specific muscle mass.
Yes this template may be applied to other modes of training.
Ok this is slightly off the topic, but still applicable.
Why would a sprinter incorporate any Olympic lifts into his program??
It seems like the best situation for a sprinter is to use limit strength excerciese for strength and sprints for speed, thus hitting both elements of the force equation needed to run faster.
I havent been consistent with my readings like I used to be and am a lil confused abt thiings nowadays.
So Im a lil lost as to why we need RFD. How does increasing RFD improve sprinting? I can see its benefits at the start and maybe in the first couple of steps, but otherwise why?
Im not challenging any training, Im just trying to get my head around all this.
Ok please disregard my last post. I did a lil more searching and found what I was looking for. There really is no NEED for O-lifts in a sprinters program. They seem to be better suited for other athletes who may be doing less frequent high quality speed workouts.
You’re missing the boat. Westside isn’t strictly for powerlifters. You can modify it to the needs of each individual depending on the sports. Look at Joe kenn’s Tier system. It’s modified westside program with limited oly lifts thrown in depending on the sports. Research, read and learn. I wouldn’t use oly lifts as my primary lifts but I use it more of accessory or supplement lifts to teach the whole body to work as one unit probably @75% of 1R max. That’s just my way of training based on what I’ve learned. You can improve your cleans without doing it with westside based programs.
First, I agree with the various means of AR and have employed them all. However, if we follow WSB, and it appears we do, think back to all your real “work” on DE and ME days…be it singles, doubles or triples. All of that work is, for me at least and I assume alot of others, under 9 seconds let’s say.
