I think what DavidW is saying is that the slope of the ideal force curve can be affected negatively with accomodating resistance like bands. During sprinting and jumping the RFD and force curve should be optimized to build up a peak at extension. If the resistance is greatest at extension then velocity can be negatively affected. For a squatter what happens at extension is irrelevant but for an athlete it’s a different story.
Empirical and academic evidence is not supporting that conclusion at all; in fact, both are showing the exact opposite.
If you want to assume that one is using bands to create a direct skill transfer, then perhaps. However, training for RFD against a light load or no load at all (speed-strength) is a bit different story than training for RFD against a heavy load (strength-speed).
Besides the information presented in Supertraining, I also came across this on EliteFTS: http://www.elitefts.com/documents/effectsofaccom-resis.htm
Highlights include:
“All participants maintained mean bar speed throughout the trial even when loads were increased. The group using the bands had increased loads at the top of the movement where the body is more biomechanical efficient ( Siff, 1999 ).”
“In the ascent phase of the movement, the varying load made the participant aware to accelerate the load, allowing for an increased time under tension but a lesser deceleration phase of the movement because of the accommodating resistance (Siff, 1999).”
That’s hardly showing any decrease in the proficiency at displaying force quickly.
Not sure whether you acknowledge this or not, However, WSB box squats DO highly activate that hamstrings groups, with or without AR.
James
Great discussions thus far gentlemen. It seems, however, that some may be missing the forest through the trees.
I write this acknowledging the point made by David referrencing more force/less speed at the outer ranges of the lift.
Allow me to reiterate that all of my findings, thus far, are based off of practical observations in the gym/field, not scientific experiment, and thus far, I have not had any of my athletes employ the use of OL’s.
According to Siff (Supertraining 5th edition) Explosive strength/RFD, simply characterizes the ability to produce maximal force in minimal time.
As to the question of whether or not AR (bands) aid in developing RFD, we may simply acknowledge what the utilization of bands DO accomplish, thereby allowing us to draw a correlation, or not, to sport performance.
The following is well known, and has already been addressed, however, I will illustrate for general principle.
Bands:
Accentuate the speed of gravity (over speed eccentrics), thereby increasing the velocity of the eccentric/yielding phase of dynamic action lifts. This increase in stored elastic/kinetic energy renders the subsequent amortization/coupling and overcoming/concentric phases more explosive.
Bands inhibit decceleration, thereby allowing the lifter to apply more force to the bar at greater joint angles.
Based upon the principle of overspeed eccentrics (with bands) and the recognized increased force/velocity values expressed throughout the yielding/coupling/overcoming phases of dynamic action lifts utilizing bands, we are left with an undeniable observation…
The utilization of bands on dynamic action lifts allows the lifter to produce maximal force in LESS time, than if the lift were performed bar weight only(equal to bar and band weight at the top).
More force prduced in less time equals increased RFD.
Whether or not this specific expression is more applicable to sport than other methods of increasing RFD is up to us as strength coaches/athletes to determine.
Considering all of the research of which I am aware, One thing is for certain, NONE OF US have performed enough thorough and un biased testing to allow us to state (based upon emperical findings) yes or no.
So let’s continue debating.LOL!
James
Excellent, excellent points!!
RnR, all he does is train for powerlifting, and can you do a standing back flip, no practice or jump training at all? Didnt think so…and please stop asking for comparisons between a not so great sprinter and a power lifter, two completely different worlds…great discussion beyond RnR’s comments
As David has stated in his sprinting article:
“Since the velocity (‘rate of force development’) component is developed through sprint training itself, priority in the gym is to develop maximum force. This is best achieved through the use of ‘limit’ strength exercises.”
Then:
“dynamic squatting with accomodated resistance stimulates maximum force NOT rate of force development.”
I’ll reiterate one more time.
RFD is NOT speed.
I’m not sure that this statement is undeniable. Indeed, I’m not even sure that it is true 
First off, my understanding of “dynamic action” lifts (I’m assuming you are referring to WSB DE-style lifts) is that they don’t attempt to produce “maximal force.” So while we do produce force in less time, this is because the weight is lighter. RFD has 2 components - force and time. It is not clear that lowering the weight and decreasing time will produce the greatest RFD. The olympic lifts attempt to increase the weight and decrese the time thus potentially allowing maximal RFD and certainly maximal power (which is another different quality!)
Secondly, I suppose if you are only comparing to doing the lifts in the traditional fashion, then I can buy that there are some advantages to DE-lifts with bands, but we have other options - David has been advocating the use of Olympic lifts and I got into this discussion to advocate that the use of sprinting was more appropriate for RFD development (for a sprinter!)
So if the argument is only that DE days for a power lifter are better than no DE days for a power lifter, I will agree. If we are talking about athletes in other sports (specifically track) then I don’t think the argument is very strong (no pun intended…ok actually it was
Give me trampoline and a couple of months of training, then yeah I will be able to perform a standing backflip.
two completely different worlds
You said it. Westside is great for producing guys to lift more weight, but until they start churning out world class sprinters from the production line, the Westside method means pretty much nothing. Would MG, TM, KC etc be any faster following the Westside method, I doubt it and I would bet in the long term it would make them slower.
in case you didnt notice this isnt about sprinters, this is the strength training forum and everyones opinion on the westside barbell method, not its application to sprinting but its general principles as a strength program, and why would they get slower? you never have justification for your responses, just look at how skinny kimcollins is and he won the World Championships, and I got news for you, all those guys youlisted lift, Ben Johnson lifted very heavy, did it slow himdown? We allknow the answer to that. And Id put money that afta a couple months you still couldnt do one, so dont dismiss something you cannot do as a common thing when it isnt. And stillyou have never revealed your secret methods, and often i think u may well be a hipocrit as you often pm me about strength moves…so how about this, comment on the subject or leave well enough alone! As for world class sprinters, how about Butch Reynold running 43.9 afta a long layoff…?
I’ll reiterate one more time too.
Westside is NOT speed, Just pure strength. Do strength gains in the gym always carryover to the track, from the articles I have read, not neccesarily.
speed is a prerequisite to lift big weights…thats like saying an oly lifter has no speed(ill venture weight lifting David W would smoke you in a 60m sprint, beyond what is considered to be where limit strength would have an effect…)
Please everyone, ignore him until he learns to take advantage of this site and its vast wealth of knowledge!
<<< Ok, I played Devil’s Advocate before, but I’ll just give my 2 cents on the topic…
As I am not a powerlifter, thrower, or someone with long limbs or a whole lot of availible training time, I feel for me my time is better spent improving limit strength through other means. I feel RFD for me can be better improved by the Sprinting I do, and I include “power/speed” exercises in every on track warm-up.
For me, Box Squats are the number one most economical way to build limit strength in my legs. I take a wide stance to recuit as many MUs as possible, and do them touch-n-go style. I like the fact I hit depth every time.
I also have done (and will do again, when time permits) OLs, and I like the total training effect they have. It is also very gratifying to me that I’ve just taken a heavy bar from the ground to over my head in a matter of seconds. When I do even a minimum level of OLs my rfd improves because I am able to handle a lot of weight (relative to 1rm — I only log lifts of 75% or greater) very fast. This allows me to spend more CNS out on the track, where I want to improve the most.
in the fall, I will be doing both once a week.
JMHO, I could be wrong.
xlr8, by dynamic action I am referring to lifts with eccentric/amortization/and concentric phases, as opposed to eccentric action only, or concentric action only, etc…
Again, we may agree to disagree. I see a trend developing. LOL!
Here is my point. When box squatting with DE percentages, your time to complete a repetition with bands at a given bar weight, compared to that same bar weight alone (no bands), is faster. This is the result of the increased stored elastic/kinetic energy that only AR (bands in this case) can provide.
Louie Simmons has utilized the Tendo unit to measure the force applied to the bar both with bar weight alone, and bar weight plus bands. So long as my memory serves me correctly, force and velocity is greater with AR, when utilizing DE percentages.
I am simply stating that, (now I have shifted into personal opinion), the development of RFD by using AR on the box squat (regardless of whether the development is to the left or right on the F:V curve) will have a positive effect not only on PL’s but sprinting as well.
Now, may there be more optimal methods-yes
I am only arguing that if you take a sprinter who is formerly untrained on DE box squatting with AR, I believe that when that sprinter has developed this formerly untrained ability, he will run faster times, so long as every other aspect of training remains constant. The trick would be to balance the volume of runnning with the additional CNS strain yielded by DE box squatting. Silverback has given some good program examples of this in this thread.
Again, I am not defining this training method as the only one, however, I do believe it to be an effective one at developing a motor abillity that has a fundemental importance to power development activities, even sprinting.
James
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question james(this is a serious one, in no way sarcastic or w.e), have you ever tested this theory?
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I mean the strengths applicable to the track can be developed in many ways, i think the argument is that the specific motor/relaxation and contraction patterns need to be developed.
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I think this is why(im sorry i keep referencing to this, but its really all i can think of) David W was able to run a 6.9 60m(top speed is reached, its past what would be appreciable from just max strength gains(I believe this is 35-40m for lean individuals).
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Why? I think the acc. came from appreciable snatch, clean, and squat number, while he was able to carry to a decent top speed because he has stated he uses the hip snatch heavily which has a high reactive component, as well his use of the jerk which has a high reactive strength component, and top speed has a large dependance on reactive strength.
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I think his times would be lowered with sprinting more because of the specific motor pattern development of relaxation and contraction timing.
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So as far as the box squats improving sprint performance, I think if it improved one of those qualities it possibly could improve sprint times
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I also think relative body strength has a great deal to do with acc.(up to 40m), I mean(again sorry for this reference, but again its the best example I can thing of) David Boston ran an electron 4.17 40 @ 258, be he can also snatch grip deadlift 2.5xbodyweight…a showing of great relative bodystrength in his hip/p-chain…so I think w/e improves starting/relative body strength and reactive strength most benefits sprinting, so if DE box squats do that then fine…
Numba, the closest approximation (test wise) would be two JC football players who I prepared for a combine. They both were introduced to DE box squatting, BUT, NO AR.
We only had 4 weeks to prepare and the introduction of AR on top of DE work would have been too much in my opinion.
During the 4 weeks with me they continued to participate in FB practice and sprint work.
Both ran their best pro agility to date, their 40’s were not their best, however, they both attributed this to bad starts. They both jumped their best to date.
Both of the guys stated that they have never felt this explosive, and before coming to me the majority of their explosive type lifting was performed with cleans.
They did NO OL’s during their 4 week block with me.
One of the guys, a D-back, ran a 3.9 pro agility, and I think (can’t remember for some reason) he jumped over 40.
Obviously there are many other variables to consider.
I too feel that relative strength plays a tremendous role in sprint times/improvements.
James
I stayed out of this for a long while, partly due to time constrictions, and partly because there are some very good minds at work here. However, having left the pile for a bit and having been just a bystander (reading), I have a few observations:
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Alot of folks contributing to this thread have never trained WSB. I have for 9 years. I made great progress. However, I would have made progress with any system and given that I am not two identical men in a double blind study :), there is not true measure of my relative “results”. However, my main criticism of WSB is lack of recovery time. I have seen this glossed over in this thread and to me, its a serious weakness in the system. I also perceive we are tip toeing around the obvious; that most of WSB lifters do not compete in “tested” meets. I’m not pro or con drug use. Its an individual choice, but I perceive (I think), alot of folks “looking the other way” during this very intelligent discussion. I know I’ve read about those that altered the split. Fine. And usually some very sound practice there. But back to the “WSB debate”. The WSB split is 4 workouts (excluding GPP and special work) in 7 days. My contribution to this thread? Too much work for the “unaided” athlete. Please don’t reply with the WSB theories that I’m doing too much work, etc. I’ve digested it all. And it’s simply too much year round.
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Alot of intelligent discussion here for sure however; I see alot of smashing square pegs into round holes. WSB is a powerlifting template. Therefore, we need to consider whether this is a discussion about the relative merits of WSB for powerlifting (a bit off topic for this site?) or, is WSB a suitable template for other sport performance? There seems to be a vague distinction in this thread, but it is often muddied. For instance, great diologue about
DE days and sprinters, etc., but really, how much can WSB be altered before it isn’t WSB any longer? And really, moreover actually, WSB has no “intellectual property” rights to concepts such as box squatting, DE work, bands, chains, etc. They have all been used prior to WSB. When, or have we already, reached a point where we are not really discussing WSB any longer? -
I can only speak from a strength perspective because that is what I train for. Thusly, I have said it before and haven’t seen it ever adequately addressed; other than my concern for recovery time, which I have already expressed, I am concerned with all the “work” in the 5-9 sec. range. I am well aquainted with the virtues of speed strength and related concepts of power/force production and whatever nomenclature you would like to toss about here. But before you dismiss my concerns (concerns that I did not arrive at hastily and without much experience), please remember, I can get under the bar and move (during any cycle in the year, without peaking and in shitty shape) 6+ squat and deadlift and 4+ bench. Not that that is impressive. I’m 39, clean, only training powerlifting style for 9 years and have shitty genetics. And, I train alone in my home gym for the last 3 years which is a blessing and curse. Nothing can replace the environment of a good facility with motivated partners. My convoluted point is that I can do what we are discussing and I am not hiding behind a text book quoting answers and theories. I am “doing”. It brings me to finally this; the theories of explosive power aside for a moment, I cannot help but to give consideration to DB Hammer’s theories regarding the maximum time you can exhibit that force. We all agree that to bench 400 in 1.5 sec v. 4 sec is preferable and exhibits greater force output, but is it wise to ignore all work above let’s say 5 seconds?? I can tell you know, from “doing”, that 2 reps in the DE squat are done under 5 sec. Same for 3 reps bench. Same for 3 reps ME on any movement - except that the time under tension may be closer to 5-9 seconds. For those not aquainted with DB’s “time theories” it is simply this (what I am referring to now). If you had 2 seconds to lift a maximal load or 7, which would be preferable. So, I am wondering, when it comes to absolute limit attempts, is there no value in being able to sustain maximum force at relatively extended times? And if so, then I believe that WSB template ignores that end of the continuum. And continuing, isn’t a “sticking point” really the inability to “strain” for sufficient time to overcome that point? And doesn’t it follow that increasing your “strain time” if you will, will help overcome sticking points. Isn’t the real disadvantage, for instance, of the long levered lifter (or any lifter at sticking point), the relative inability to strain through it? I hope I’m not getting too muddied here in my point. If I am, sorry. WSB simply does not address max force production at times beyond 6 seconds or so, instead, sacrificing that area of work for an almost maniacal goal to “become faster” in the movement e.g., produce more force. Does WSB do this at the expense of other strength development, where a perfect balance would be first, more individualized to the athletes relative weaknesses, and second, somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. I guess this question can be put simply; is all work in the above 6 sec range useless for developing limit strength? The only time on WSB I work in this time range is under sub maximal load for accessory work. Comments please.
Anectdotally, to throw fuel in the fire of some of the “sub threads” here; WSB has not made me “faster”. It has not prepared me to run at all. In fact, having run a 4.3 40yd in my basketball days (@185 bw), I now have a bet with some coworkers that I can run a 40 time similar to that of prospects my bwt (275lbs) at recent NFL combines, e.g., approx 5.2 Well, when I started “training” for the sprint, I could not “train” at all. First, I was pulling my hams anytime I went all out. I had NEVER pulled a ham prior. The neurological “programming” if you will, from strictly powerlifting, to something dynamic like sprinting was not there. Still, first time, I ran 5.5 in the cold, in basketball sneakers, having not “run” in over 9 years. Not bad for my bwt and being 39 and my only activity being powerlifting. Hardly a “knock” against WSB heh? However, the “programming” was all wrong. Still, based on some changes in my training (some more DB stuff), I am confident I will go sub 5. Probably 4.9 at best. Not great I know. Just trying to illustrate some of the problems trying to apply a powerlifting template to other sports performance and the ultimate question; after how much alteration is it really “WSB” at all?
Done rambling. Hope I made a point somewhere lol :). Forgive me! By the way, I am really impressed with some of the folks here!
[. I’m 39, clean, only training powerlifting style for 9 years and have shitty genetics. QUOTE]
Proofing my post after the fact, I did not mean to say “shitty genetics”. I meant shitty leverages. I’m six one, with relative long arms and legs. In other words, I’m not the “prototypical” powerlifter build. As I mentioned, in my basketball days, I ran a 4.3 40 and my vertical was 38-40. If it matters to anyone, I am white. My weightlifting experience, and I say that relatively, before powerlifting, was occassional weight training to compliment the basketball. My point being like many my age must think; “If I knew then what I know now!”. Anyway, no football background or more to the point, serious weight training. So, I wouldn’t call my genetics “shitty” and I’m very proud of the numbers I’ve hit considering my background - and I owe a heck of alot of it to WSB, lest any of you think I am “trashing” WSB. I have not come across another trainer/coach that has printed, published, provided, consulted, so much material for free as those guys. Just some clarifications…
Steve, you and I could go round and round on this one. I too train for powerlifting utilizing the WSB template, and I also utilize a modified WSB template for the athletes that I train. WSB or not it is all Semantics. Let’s just call it the conjugate system applied to powerlifting.
I stated this in an earlier post but I’ll state it again.
I am 6"1’ 240 (drug free) 30 years old, and after only training for powerlifting for just over one year (conventional strength training for 15 years prior) I hit a 473 bench (Inzer DD) in my first meet (501 was on its way up and I lost the groove). I am also a 6+ squatter and going for a 600dl in my first full meet in sept. My point, I have experienced fantastic results using the 7 day split and I am unaided. My training partner (28) is also drug free and at 280 he hit a 573 bench 710 squat and 661dl in his first full meet after only training for just over a year using the WSB method (about 10years conventional strength training prior).
It is NOT too much. You must account for biological variability and manipulate the volume to accomodate your training age, age, levers, weaknesses, recovery ability, etc…
The only explanation here is that you have made errors in application. Far too many “unaided” lifters and athletes have experienced success with the WSB method for you to make generalizations.
At best, all you may do is speak about your personal experience. Just try and avoid making the mistake of judging the program for everyone.
James