An easy muscle to isolate, removes at least some variables (in terms of multi joint movements, etc). A lot of researchers look at hand muscles for the same reason.
Lyle
i didnt ask for a scientific study, i asked for where it worked in application. as well he said the purpose of dynamic days isnt for technique, but to build speed, go read over on the west side sight when he talks about DE, its purpose is to build RFD specifically for the powerlifting movement…
RFD is simply that-- rate of force development. It’s how fast you can reach maximal force output. I don’t see why everyone is having such a hard time realizing that this quality is independent of external speed. Index of explosive strength is simply Fm/Tm, where Fm is peak force and Tm is time to peak force.
When you start considering external velocity and power, things change a little bit, but as far as developing RFD, that doesn’t even require motion-- even isometrics have RFD.
Not surprisingly, it’s also very specific to load and to movement. Zatsiorsky notes that it is impossible to achieve maximal force in fast movements against intermediate resistance, so the dynamic effort approach is used to improve RFD and explosive strength, not maximal strength (Science and Practice, pg 105). He also goes on to state that maximal efforts can enhance RFD in some athletes, and that to enhance RFD specifically, “exercises with maximally fast bursts of muscle action against high loads are used.”
This combined with force-plate analyses of exercises performed with band tension, displaying increases in overall force as well as reactive and explosive strength increases above simple bar weight.
It’s not really that big a jump of logic-- as the tension increases, you have to push harder to keep the bar moving up. The change in the relationship between tension and joint angle/muscle length requires acceleration, or else you don’t complete the movement.
Although the gear plays a tremendous role with respect to accelerating force on the bar following the coupling phase of the (squat, bench) and off of the floor (DL) you must always remember…the gear lifts nothing on its own.
So although high assistance is given in the bottom position (by gear), the development of RFD (especially in the bottom range) will further capitalize on the use of equipment.
Now, as you have pointed out, there are many lifters who do not utilize a DE day per se, however, what you will notice is that many lifters who do not train WSB) will either wave percentages in a progressive linear fashion (Coan), or simply employ a heavy-light (moderate) approach (Militia) throughout the course of a training week. In both examples you will find that RFD, albeit inadvertently and not optimally, is being addressed to a certain degree.
As for the lifters who train heavy in every workout, this is a testament to the fact that there is not one best method, only optimal methods.
To deny the positive attributes of DE training, even with AR, would be to deny the practical observations of the WSB lifters and every other athlete who employs DE days with AR as part of the conjugate method.
As always, practical observations out weigh theoretical objections.
James
Well said.
James
Lyle, the Ed Coan comparison is lame. Blah, blah, blah, yourself. Don’t be obtuse. What you are saying is that if you do what Ed Coan does, you’ll get Ed Coan results. Ed Coan is way out past the mean on the bell curve. You know that isn’t true. He’s like the big, lean guy who can weight 230@8% bodyfat and eat like shit all day long. He’s there, but you can’t duplicate his results doing what he does. I’m just going to chalk it up to you having no real experience with equipped powerlifters training, despite your efforts with your “lesbians”.
I’ve got a good quote from Dave Caster (a powerlifter and thrower/trainer of throwers who consults with Louie quite frequently)
One last little commentary that escapes most trainers and trainees:
The real trick is to figure out what your trainee needs. If you have a Vardanyan or Ben Johnson type who is just plain fast as hell and the real window of opportunity in getting them better is getting them stronger, then rate-of-force-development exercises will take a back seat to plain old strength training.This is why, also, that these athletes were not good without anabolics, but incredibly good with them.
If you don’t want to do drugs, then you better learn how to train right.
If you have a trainee who needs a little reorganization of the fast twitchers, then a little bit (a lot bit) of percent training will be key. AND if you have an athlete who has some lever disadvantage, then his/her training will have a lot more emphasis on weakpoint remediation.The smaller lifters (P/L and O/L) who were the best at what they did oftentimes could use very basic attacks with very low reps and very heavy weights because they have/had GREAT LEVERS (Naim, Bridges, and guys like that).
The game changes for the heavy, the long-levered and the tall.
These folks need different things.
These folks also make up most of the throwing population. That’s why there is no relevance with respect to how little Bulgarian O/L’ers train and how throwers can use it (the training) . . . and a LOT of relevance with respect how Russians trained (and Westsiders still train) big people, because they know how to train them.
If a coach has one champ, the results just may well be his/her dumb luck in having a mutant under their wing. If a coach trains them well en masse, you had better pay attention. Before you take what I say as some truth regarding training duration and rest periods, go visit some gyms where the truly strong are developed and take careful notes.
hes said this so many times, because comp acc cant be permitted in a squat without leaving the ground, the body deaccelerates the weight to save the joints…i dont have the scientific answer or whatever to that, but look at westside if you could just stimulate RFD by just trying to push as hard as you could what would be the purpose of having Dynamic days or plyometrics? I remember seeing in an article that in the soviet union they concluded that expression of max strength was in no way associated with expression of RFD… __________________
Every olympic hero is standing on the top of failed athletes in ruin…David W states motor confusion with great vigor since yes…too much overload at extended ranges of motion can hamper RFD if too much emphasis is placed in that training. Soviet research with national level (those that are sub-elite = ie not international) clearly shows that throwers (shotput) loose a meter if the percentage of AR (they used a device).I like the fact the WSB rotates PRs in different lifts within the powerlifts…perhaps rotating the distances that charlie suggests may be in fact a great pattern.I use WSB methods to help with Maximum strength but like any training it represents only part of a biomotor ability.
I use cleans for swimmers (read the Swimming Fastest book for the training of Haynes —olympic lift s for swimmers as well as Auburn’s program) but only if the catch on early and if we have time.
how about this for athletic, kevin deweese can do a standing backflip, and Tim Harold Jr. can jump onto a 32inch box with ease!! Of course they weigh 250 and 460. Haha. Now the question is can strength to this extreme be very helpful? These displays show a carryover to athletic jumps from just training for powerlifting. I think its not to much the template has to be changed but adjusted for the specific needs of the athlete. ie for a sprinter, sprints, oly lifter, oly lifts, football player position specific drills for extra workouts, etc…
I have seen girls not even into there teens performing standing backflips. Eastern European gymnasts as young as 6 performing them on Trans World Sport.
Anyone can perform a standing backflip regardless of what they weigh. You don’t need that much explosive strength (As shown by young gymnasts) but you do need to get your technique down. Mr Deweese has probably spent alot of time performing them using a trampoline. If you go straight from the trampoline and have the confidence/technique to perform them from the floor, you will do a standing backflip. What you weigh isn’t really a factor.
Now the question is can strength to this extreme be very helpful?
Well like I said, I have seen 6 years old girl gymnasts performing standing backflips. You don’t need to be strong. For Kevin Deweese (250lbs) performing backflips shows me nothing. The initial take off to perform a backflip is barely 4 inches, gymnasts needing barely an inch.
These displays show a carryover to athletic jumps from just training for powerlifting.
Jesus.
One more thing. Take the best lifter from Westside in all 3 disciplines of powerlifting (Squat, Deads, Bench). Maybe has over a 2000 total. Give the Westside lifter a 170lb bodyweight with little sprint training. Kim Collins has the genetic advantage, the westside lifter, the strength.
Westside Lifter Vs Kim Collins (100m)…
BOOM
Kim Collins leaves him for dead…
So what?
One is a sprinter - one isn’t
One trains to run fast
One doesn’t…
…eh … and your point is?
JESUS Is there only Clemson out there who gets it?!
Why isn’t that going to stimulate RFD?
Because the resistance in the outer range is near maximal!! i,e. Is too heavy to move quickly! How much more basically do I have to explain it?
Does a maximum quarter squat develop RFD?
The point is…the light sprinting “should” be enough to develop the speed and power needs since lifting is the primary stimulus. Bands will help Max Strength and that may in fact shift RFD…but RFD specific training will shift it faster and perhaps more. Cleans is the only olympic lift i teach and verticals do improve…some of the WSB subgroups are very good maximal strength guys and are able to skyrocket their athletes strength so far it does carryover. Still, RFD work and bands are different.
That training Westside will make you stronger, not neccesarily make you any quicker and certainly won’t make you legs move any faster.
Seems overrated to me.
I was watching re-runs today of the world championships in Paris and seeing how them guys accelerated there upper-thighs upwards into a flexed position during the swing/recovery phase, blew me away. How fast is it, 26/27MPH+???.. Not sure.
What exercises are they performing at Westside to enhance this quality???.. A quality that is said to generate most of your running speed & power???.
Does a maximum quarter squat develop RFD?
Not sure David W. Will a maximum quarter squat make your legs move any quicker???..
During the peak V" stage of running, the hams are working more than the quads. This is not so in band squats or quater squats. (niether is it in conventional squats but haven’t got time to go over why they r still good.)There will be motor confusion relative to athletics from quater and band squats.)
If you’re assuming RFD = external speed. It doesn’t.
A fast movement has a high RFD, but a movement with high RFD isn’t necessarily fast.
Does a maximum quarter squat develop RFD?
False analogy; not the same thing as using bands to load the movement.
However, just to answer the point, yes, it does if the intent of effort is present.
Research has suggested that as much as 24% of a power lift is deceleration.
RFD = rate of force development.
If you look at a graph of the amount of force generated during a movement, RFD is the slope of the line. The steeper the line, the greater the RFD. So there are two components to express high levels of RFD. The first is that the amount of force must be increasing (significantly) over time and the second component is that the time must be short.
Bands could help to express RFD because the amount of force necessary to complete the lift is increasing throughout the lift (the first component) but if the bands also increase the time for the lift, this could offset the force factor.
At the end of a lift (assuming that the weight stops moving), then the amount of force exerted against it becomes constant (equilibrium state) and therefore, the force graph is a horizontal line and RFD = 0.
This is my understanding of the physics. Whether or not expressing great levels of RFD is the best way to train for higher levels of RFD is a different question. I would tend to think it is…
Bands have been shown to do just that through force plate analysis, though. The force increases throughout the ROM.
You’re more or less right about the RFD being the slope of the force/time curve, though the contingent I would add is that increasing force while even keeping time stable would have increasing the RFD value. Bands don’t tend to increase the time involved to any significant degree; even so, you have to bear in mind that RFD is still being trained neurologically.
As I’ve been saying, it’s not a matter of externally measurable speed. You can reach maximum force output in a split second on an isometric action; the RFD for that will be extremely high, but there is no motion. Zatsiorsky recommends doing three triples at 90% to develop maximal RFD against heavy loads (“strength-speed”). You can’t draw comparisons between a fast/powerful movement and a heavy movement with high RFD.