What ratio would that be? I know Beradi talked about 33%/33%/33% but I don’t know if you’re talking about the same or something different.
The ratios from the Westonaprice org are 6p/34m/60s ?
Anyway, a similar p/s ratio (0.19) was compared with a 1.67 ratio in the study, and this proved better for fat loss.
In real terms, I think this could be compared to eating 20% sat, and 34% polys.
Here it is:
The effect of fat composition of the diet on energy metabolism.
van Marken Lichtenbelt WD, Mensink RP, Westerterp KR. Department of Human Biology University of Limburg, Maastricht, The Netherlands. Medline record in process.
Ernahrungswiss 1997 Dec;36(4):303-305
Animal and human studies show that polyunsaturated fatty acids § are oxidized more rapidly than saturated fatty acids (S). There are indications that diets high in P/S ratio result in a relatively high resting metabolic rate (RMR) and high diet induced thermogenesis (DIT). However, studies with human subjects are limited. The effect of dietary fatty acid composition on energy metabolism was studied in 6 male subjects, age 25-48 y. Two diets were supplied, each over a period of 14 days, in a randomized crossover design with a washout period of 14 days. P/S ratios of the diets were 0.19 and 1.67. On day 14, RMR was determined in the morning in fasting state by means of indirect calorimetry (ventilated hood), followed by a 4 hour measurement of the DIT after consumption of a standardized meal of 3.3 MJ with the same fatty acid composition as during the dietary period. The meal contained 46, 37, and 17 % energy as fat, carbohydrate, and protein, respectively. RMR after the period with the high P/S diet was significantly higher than after the period of the low P/S diet. The average difference (+/- SD) was 0.17 +/- 0.14 kJ/min or 3.6 +/- 2.7 % of RMR. The DIT was also higher in all subjects during a breakfast with a high P/S ratio. The average difference was 0.29 +/- 0.16 kJ/min, which is 22.1 +/- 12.6 % of DIT. The study showed that a prolonged food intake of a diet with a high P/S ratio results in a relatively high RMR and DIT. These results indicate the importance of dietary lipid profile in the treatment of obesity.
It’s not related to fat intake, it’s more relative to amino acid availability. In 10 years, I believe we’ll know more about the impact that amino acids have on general health, and the whole fat-thing will begin to wash away into a larger pool of contributing factors to heart disease and other illnesses that are culture-specific.
Meat is high in methionine and low in arginine. A perfect recipie for many combined factors that support risk factors like high blood pressure, increased serum turbidity/viscosity, elevated peroxidation, and increased cytokine activity proximal to vascular endothelium. Translation: this is a combination that supports more damage to blood vessels than healing in blood vessels. The results are cumulative over time.
In terms of performance, this combination contributes to many of our age-myths in performance athletes. The reasons for diminished performance over time may not be fairly attributed to aging, alone, but maybe the accumulative contributions of metabolic imbalances enforced by modern-day dietary conveniences.
Enig and Price focus more on the specific roles fats (trans, PUFA, etc.) play in modern disease (from what I gathered). Admirable work, nonetheless.
In terms of ratios, though. I’ve read so many books over the past 5 or 6 years and I’m continually confused by conflicting statements by various popular authors. My take on it is this: authors (not unlike myslef) are inevitably led by their own positive and negative experiences. The passion they express in their discoveries are invitably a reflection of their positive experiences (whether they be clinical, family, personal varies from one author to another). While that’s great, these experiences are expressed with pride, and pride can sometimes get in the way of admitting that one is being preferential to one idea as opposed to another, equally rational though it may be. Personal experience lead Barry Sears to conclude that 40:30:30 was the (close to) perfect equation for Carb:Ptn:Fat ratio, and also led him to believe that GLA (gamma linolenic acid) was the fatty acid of choice. This personal choice led him and his brother to move to Canada (Saskatchewan, ugh) in the early 80’s to cultivate Borage seeds. The ratio of Borage oil to EPA to get him and his brother into the “Zone” was the basis upon which he decided to build his recommendations. Like any diet, the Zone works for some people, but not for everyone. Why? Biochemical individuality… He, himself admitted in his book, “Now I thought I was on my way to fame and fortune for developing the first practical dietary application of the 1982 Nobel Prize for Medicine. But this enthusiasm was guickly muted by our early work with both elite athletes and cardiovascular patients. To put it briefly, when I looked at the results of GLA and EPA supplementation in these groups, I realized that we were not consistently getting the results that we should have tith this relatively crude form of eicosanoid modulation. In some cases the combination of the EPA and GLA gave spectacular resultes. In other cases I initially got great results, but then there was a dropoff.”
Here’s another case in my point. Remember the Dean Ornish diet? Ornish basically advocated very low fat diets and very high intakes of fiber (and legumes) as the healthy cure for heart disease. around 7 years ago when I began my practice, I had a number of patients come into my clinic on the Ornish diet after they’ve either had a heart attack or after they were diagnosed as high risk. They swore up and down that the Ornish diet was going to end all of their problems. Each subsequent visit, those patients that refused to listen to my dietary advice (those who were religious about the Ornish diet) wasted away physically, because they refused to eat meat protein. they contended that they should have been getting enough protein from their beans and rice, etc. While their risk for a heart attack might have diminished, they sacrificed their general state of well-being and became anorexic and depressed. Beans are high in Arginine and low in Methionine. While this bodes well for their blood vessels, it may not be the right combination for everyone else on the planet. Especially those who enjoy being physically active. Ornish was right to some degree, but substantiated his view using the wrong arguement. It wasn’t the fat in the meat, per se, that was the basis of his concern, but perhaps the profile of amino acids in the meat that brought about his diet theory. While he was right in one sense, he was wrong in another. As a result, all but a small, genetically unique group of his followers may have suffered, rather than thrived on his diet.
The right ratio is INIDIVIDUAL. It has as much to do with our list of daily responsibilities as it has to do with the anthropology of the line of descendents that gave rise to our genetic uniqueness. Don’t be swayed by one doctor’s view of the world - this world and all the people that live on it are too diverse and full of unexpected metabolic turns to peg down like that. Rather, take each view and add it to a collective - and compare notes.
In terms of determining individuality, take a serious look into testing. If you’re an athlete on your way to the top and you have the resources, a chart (like the one I attached) can give you indispensible information. Take a look…
This is a client that supplemented the omega-3 fatty acid, EPA (eicosapentainoic acid) regularly, but on testing, showed a disproportionate elevation in EPA compared to other essential fatty acids. Too much of a good thing, in this case, can lead to lipid peroxidation and other heath risk concerns.
On the other hand, look at this client’s DGLA. The omega-6 portion of the clients profile is sadly lacking in terms of borage, evening primrose, or black currant oil supplements. How else would one know if these levels were derranged without clinical testing?
Itruett,
It’s a pretty interesting book, definitely worth a look. It has a lot of unique recipes, many involving fermentation, that you just won’t find in most other nutrition/recipe books.
Dr. Hollis,
Welcome to the forum. I’m sure we will all learn a great deal from your participation. And I think you’ll find this is a pretty smart group of laymen.
Regarding the amino acid pros/cons of meat and other protein sources, this would seem to reinforce the practical advice that variety is critical in nutrition. I remember an article by Scott “Dr. Met-Rx” Connelly about 12 years ago in which he pointed out that most Americans only eat about a dozen different foods on a regular basis. Our own Clemson has an article on his web site that talks about the need for variety in fruit consumption, rather than just apples and oranges.
Regarding your observations on meat, in Nourishing Traditions, which I mentioned above, there is a strong preference for organ meats over muscle meat. Do you know if there is an advantage to this from an amino acid point of view?
Dr. Hollis,
Great post! How much would a test like this cost? What about the questionaires that are used by some to find out metabolic typing, do they have any value?
Dr. Hollis,
I need a clarification. When you talk about meat, are you referring to any animal flesh, including fish/shellfish, or just the terrestrial animals, beef, poultry, etc.? Does this amino acid ratio (i.e. high methionine) include dairy/eggs as well?
Do you recommend consuming arginine-rich foods (e.g., legumes) with meats or perhaps supplementing arginine with meat-containing meals?
Off-hand, I do not know if there are specific differences between organ vs. muscle meats. I have several texts (not in this office) that would, likely, denote some significant differences in amino acid profiles. The reason why I say this is the difference in functionality in organ meats compared to the primarily contractile proteins characteristic of muscle meats. Kidney, spleen, intestine, liver - all likely have unique configurations. Liver especially.
Questionnaires? Very interesting that you should bring that up. No, most questionnaires are childsplay in terms of accuracy. I spent the better part of the last year (Mar-03 to Dec-03) working on a very complicated 400-500 question, multy organ/endocrine profiling system. I had to read through countless resources to pull together this data so that it could form accurate perspectives on vitamin/mineral deficiencies and specific organ system function in the human body. By far, the endocrine system was the most difficult and lengthy part of this profile to fit together. I used the internet as a resource to pull existing endocrine questionnaires into my research, and found them very simplistic.
I’m am hoping to get this thing into an on-line context in the next year, along with my writings on related topics. When I manage to get close to the end of this seemingly endless pile of work of mine, I’ll let you guys in on it. Right now, my entire focus is learning testing procedures and metabolic evaluation - it’s the last peice of the puzzle, in my view. In a year, I will have mastered the testing end of the equation, too.
In terms of cost (for testing) and who to call:
Metametrix Clinical Laboratory - 1 800 221-4640 (keep in mind, I am a Clinical Consultant with Metametrix. Therefore, consider my opinion to be biased in favor of this company. While I feel very fortunate to be working with this organization and these people, I think it’s important that you understand my affiliation…)
Heather is operating client services at Metametrix and is better equiped to specify pricing. But, depending on where you live, we can set you up with a doctor who can facilitate the test. Fatty acid profiles, alone, require a serum sample and cost about USD$300.00.
There are numerous other test to choose from, and Heather may help you to sort through the ones that would be best for you. Of particular relevance are: the ION test, Organix profile, and Amino Acid 40 profile. Athletes can draw amazing conclusions from one or more of these tests - these tests could change the performance industry forever.
Currently, I am pushing Metametrix to consider some interesting research opportunities specific to athletics. I have proposed to them that we conduct amino acid profiles on various elite athletes after high intensity training to evaluate the rate of amino acid catabolism in the first 48 hours, and to evaluate the rate of amino acid assimilation in the following 72 hours of regeneration. My theory is that different people regenerate at different rates and therefore require longer microcycle duration than others. I believe much of this is based on endocrine profiles (refer back to the begining of this response).
Results like these can really contribute to what we know and what resources we have available in terms of individualize training protocols for different body/metabolic types.
Yes. Arginine-rich foods (supplements), to me, sound like a good “retirement investment”. Okay, maybe I should better phrase that: Arginine-rich foods (supplements) may prolong your athletic career. As I iterated in an earlier response in the forum on NO2, I think NO2, and other arginine supplements have the unintended benefit of long-term vascular health associations, including benefits in terms of connective tissue vitality – both are essential in preserving the longevity of our mature athlete population.
Foods that contain ample methionine:
Cottage cheese (dry)
Cottage cheese (crmd)
Fish & other seafoods
Meats
Poultry
Peanuts, roasted w skin
Sesame seeds
Dry, whole lentils
Foods that contain ample arginine*:
Legumes
Whole grains
Nuts
Seeds
Peanuts (probably the best for Arginine absorption, so long as they’re not roasted)
Brown Rice
Popcorn
Other foods have higher amounts, but Arginine absorption competes (unsuccessfully) with proportionately higher amounts of Lysine and Histidine.
*Keep in mind, extrusion processes tend to reduce lysine, arginine, and tryptophan content of foods. Extrusion is a process primarily applied to grains in the making of cereals, snack foods, flat breads, textured vegetable proteins, infant food formulas, modifies starches and flours, and pet foods.
Confused yet? So am I… 
Dr. Hollis,
Your explanation seems to justify the American tradition of eating beans with steak and their inclusion in chili.
Regarding arginine supplementation, would you recommend taking them with animal-derived protein meals or separately on a (fairly) empty stomach? Back when arginine/ornithine supps were popular, there was a concern about competing absorption from other proteins/aminos.
Is this blood testing stuff similar to what Poliquin does?
I would recommend Arginine supplementation away from any competitive sources of histidine, lysine, and (possibly) cysteine. Meat is one such offending source. I’m afraid this recommendation is backed more by anecdotal suggestions, even though there has been research citing the competitive interaction bythese amino acids.
Charles Poliquin’s professional habits are a bit of a mystery to me - as I haven’t kept up with his career over the past several years. My respect to him if he is using labs to help his professional training, though.
What kinds of experiences have you all had in terms of free form amino acid use in your training or consulting? I’m very interested in getting feedback.