considering that i have talked to numerous people who have benched in a similar way, i think not but hey you can choose to be narrow minded about it if you so wish. just because its unheard of doesnt mean it cant be done.
Come on a bit of common sense! Who in their right minds has the time and effort to bench that many times in one year. Name these people - get them on this forum. Holidays, Xmas?? Was he benching in his dreams? Look at some real research not jay schroeder mystical voodoo anecdotal evidence.
people who live for their sport are those who have time to do this. all i can go by is the people i have talked to and what i have experienced. im so tired of the bullshit knowledge vacume that you see on the web on training. the same thing is regurgetated over and over. people doubt jay because they cant wrap their mind around doing what he and his athletes do, but ive talked with him his athletes his trainers. the stuff is legit but people blow it off as bull. if you really want to prove it wrong try it for yourself thats the only way you will know for sure. now if during my personal experience i find it to be a load of shit i will be the first person say it. but all i have gotten from working with him and his ppl are positive rapid results. and talking with him gives insight into a person who has a deeper understanding of the human physiological processes as they pertain to human athletic development than anyone i have talked to before. so you guys go blow it off without considering without trying and stay with your current knowledge set. instead of saying hes full of shit maybe you should suspend disbelief for a second and ask yourself how its possible.
Come at it from the other direction.
CNS fatigue has been observed by all the top coaches on the extreme edges of PROVEN PERFORMANCE - that means WORLD RECORDS, not workout anecdotes.
This is not compatable with Schraeder, so he dismisses it as “old school” and a “knowledge vacuum”.
Well, as the old lady used to say: “WHERE’S THE BEEF?”
Stupendous performances are always the result of stupendous workouts in the context of proper timing, BUT, as you can see, Jay’s alternative has NOT resulted in an expansion of the human performance envelope.
You ask us to: “Suspend disbelief for a second and ask yourself how it is possible.”
I ask you to suspend belief for a second and ask yourself: “How it is possible NOT to advance the human performance envelope if this is the optimal way to train?”
You have met with success so far, but this is a case of moving up in the short term from a performance standpoint below that of those promoted, same thing we were hearing about the auto-reg DB Hammer stuff, and you are free to pursue any training regime you want, and be anyone’s disciple.
I have coached athletes to World Records, have developed the training programs used by other coaches to produce World Records, and have coached coaches who have produced World Records, yet my experience should be dismissed.
Who should be tired of what??
I will use Two factor adaptation model (Siff, Zatsiorsky) to explain Overtraining and Overaching.
Preparedness = Fitness - Fatigue
Overtraining
Overtraining is disability of the body to adapt (increase fitness component) which eventually leads to de-adaptation (decrease in fitness component) to preserve itself (greater fitness levels can cause greater stress, less fitness less aditional potential stress).
Fatigue levels may be normal. Thus if athletes rests for couple of day, his fatigue levels will be normal, but his fitness (and as a result preparedness) will still suck!
Overtraining is a result of reduced levels of adaptational energy (see my thread regarding adapational buffers). This can means low levels of hormones, RNA etc. Adaptation energy drainage is a result of too long linear increase in training load without waves and unloading. This may have nothing to do with fatigue, altought in the first time fatigue levels are high due accumulation.
Overaching
Overaching is the situation where the athlete accumulates great level of fatigue. This means athletes trains with unsuficient recovery and accumulates fatigue.
He is able to adapt, but he is unable to perform and thus create stimuly for futher adapation. I am reffering to the worst situation. In some not extreme situation athletes adapt but his fatigue levels cancel out that new increase in fitness. After the athlete rest, fatigue levels drops and the new level of preparedness see the day.
Overaching is an example of acute overtraining!
Verhoshansky’s Blok (concentrate loading) system uses this kind of overaching (acute overtraining) with longer mezocycles (1-3months) to create cumulative stress which is neccesery to create new levels of fitness in most elite athletes (but this Verho said). After reducing the load, athlete supercompensate over the same period of time during which the load was increased.
This kind of planned overaching/overtraining needs excelent coaching control.
I was allway wondered how come CF produced excelent results with elite athletes while continualy improving speed without concentrated loading and speed deterioation during some period. Geez, it must have been that the Verkho is not correct!
charlie i tihink you rjumpin the ugn a bit i dont think they believe CNS fatigue doesnt exist. And jay has a long list of athletes which just happen to play a varied range of sport. You can agree that sprinting is a huge factor in training thats why it takes time to get better. now lets just say that ben could have sprinted twice as often as he had dont you think he would have progressed faster that said all thing being equal , applicable recovery and all. Im trying to get across that his system has things we can learn from everyone seems to be missing that and assuming that i am saying drop what your doing and stary doing it jays way. and as for others not being able to do high load high volume high speed he says that is the point at which other systems fail and his is able.
concentrated loading phase, if i remember well, mean a concentration of strenght work in a single sub phase of work
The question was: in MxS phase of CFTS, what percentage of strength work a sprinter can do in comparison do of the entire phase (macrocycle) of work?
if it was a ratio 7:7 (an example if yuo follow a 313 MxS’Spp) between MxS and Maintenance and you cut the volume for a 30-40% and intensity (loads) for 5-10% you have (example) a concentration of strength work for 65% in MxS
another point to view before talking about CF and YVerkh’s systems differences is the placement of very intensity work
In YVerkh’s one to allow LTDTE (Long Term Delayed Training Effect) is the subsequent week after the first unloading week of work (after MxS phase)
vabo74,
Thanks for your opinions…
Anyway, my knowledge of Verkho’s system comes from reading Supertraining, before 2 years, and in that time I didn have enough knowledge to digest it very well… I will re-read it soon!
My main disagreement with concentrated loading approach (as defined by Verkho, I am not talking about some emphasis period in CSS) is becasue it forces you into acute-overtraining, your ability levels drops under normal, and after you unload they jump… I think this is BS!
Anyway, without going into this kind of disussion, I am more for slow continuous improvements all the time (with slight oscilations).
Does 1-5RM values falls down during CFTS MxS phase or they continually improve from training to training? In block system strenght values should drop, and after unload they should jump over the Liberty Statue! I don’t buy it!
I am more into the slight improvements from training session to training session, if they platoue, change methods/exercises etc to stimulate futher adaptation
It may appear that CFTS uses MxS phase as a “concentrated loading” to induce LDTE, but I think this is not the case… I think that this is the optimal time to stimulate strength growth, and then the emphasis should be switched to another abilities (speed, SE), becasue MxS phase use a lot of adaptation energy and cause too musch of a fatigue to allow futher progression in S and SE!
Charlie, please correct if I missed something here…
strenght and speed don’t have the same trend so you can improve some (slow) lift but your Explosive strength index can drop (in the last part of the cycle)
you can see that one in some stone’s articles (i’m sorry but i haven’t anymore the link for it).
One thing to see can be the change on T/C level over the phase (macrocycle)
But, for sprinter the problem is: at the end of MxS phase what is his MaxV?
probably he cannot train this aspect (full train) and he have to wait the maintenance phase (but not soon, such as Verkhoshansky, after one week after the end of the first unloading week*) to intensification training
another thing: in the double periodization model of YVerkh, the second phase of training is less of length of time
Ok, in CFTS for 100s sprinter we can find a triple periodization but you can see the same thing (for example: 12 weeks for the first phase, 8 for the second e 3 for the thrid)
Again: in CF & YVerkh’s models of training the lenght of time between MxS/Concentrated loading phase and maintenance-contest/iintensification phase (the ratio) is similar
so, i see some similarity between YVerk and CF’s system
The problem can be the peculiarity of sprint characteristic: you cannot introduce shock week of training (for example)
i think, for the same reason, in CFTS, volume raise along the MxS mesocycle and do not drop
all these aspects are useful to prevent injuries
Of course, the are cleary differents between CF and YVerkh for sprinter training but we talk about general model
*if i remember well, if sprinter use EMS, this period is larger
There was an example of Verk’s block training applied to a sprinter in peak performance:
Using block periodisation
-
First consult an advanced coach as well as an applied physiologist or a number of researched papers on which physical elements are most important for your sport. In the published literature to date, four elements appear to be the maximum used in one block. Remember that these training elements may not be stopped at the conclusion of a specific block and that blocks of training can merge into each other.
-
Learn the hierarchy of training means to perfect the physical skills for your sport. For example,
balance requires the skills of strength, flexibility and coordination. -
Typically, A/B blocks will not be repeated more than three times in a year. Occasionally, a third
C block will be used, which continues the work completed in B block but with more focus on
peaking.
Using the principles above, a block periodised training programme for a sprinter might look something like this:
Block A
The specific training means and the order of
importance would be:
● maximum strength;
● explosive strength;
● starting strength;
● bounds.
This could translate into the following training:
● 6-16 repetitions spread over 2-4 sets of 3-4 x 150m,
3-4 x 100m, 3-4 x 50m at 80-90% effort with 1-2 mins
between reps and 2-4 mins between sets;
● 8 x 200m with 100m walk or 100m jog as rest (1-
2 mins) at about 28-30 secs each;
● 10 x 150m accelerations to 90%, 1-2 mins rest;
● 5-6 x 300m with 1-2 mins rest then slow (48-54
secs) 5 x 200m with 3 mins rest, moderate (27-28
secs);
● 6-12 x 400m Fartlek (each 400m consisting of
100m walk, 100m jog, 100m stride at 65-70-sec
pace, 100m sprint at 90%);
● 3-4 x 500m (200m (27-29 secs) 1 min rest then
300 (48-50 secs) with 3-5 mins between sets.
Block B
For block B, the order of importance would change
slightly (but all elements would remain):
● starting strength;
● bounds;
● explosive strength;
● maximum strength.
This could translate into the following training:
● Emphasise ‘complete’ recoveries between
repetitions and sets. Such recoveries are usually 3-
4 mins between reps, and 5-8 mins between sets;
● 3 x 100m at 90-95% effort, 3 x 60m at 99%, 3 x
30m crouch start (CS) at 99-100%, 3 x 30m CS at
95%;
● 3 x 150m, then alternate 30m at 95% with 30m at
75%, 3 x 100m in-outs, 3 x 50m (medium build-up
with last 25m at 99-100%);
● 4 x 100m at 90% (accelerate to 90%), 4 x 100m
in-outs, 6-8 starts alternating 100% for 15m with
100% for 30m starts.
Guys,
thanks for your replys! They cleared some stuff but opened new questions in my head 
Ok, here is how I look at the things:
- In concentrated loading (CL) or Block it is goal to produce acute-overtrainig and to provoce Delayed Supercomensation Effect after unload
- During CL block, the stressed ability falls down due accumulated fatigue. So, according to DL block of MxS work, actually 1RM values should drop and not Explosive strength. After unload, 1 RM should jump
- David Woodhous in one of his article showed that during the intensity overtraining the first sign is a drop in explosive performance (Olys, jumps, sprint time) while “slow strenght” reamains the same
- I agree that during MxS phase, speed should be put in “maintenance” and then you switch emphaisis to speed while maintaining MxS! This is example of Conjugate Sequence System. Stevemac24 showed this in last post (everything is done only the emphasis varies)
So, to conclude, there is a great simmilarity, but the question here is the following:
Does the athletes needs to experience acute overtraining in speed to induce greater delayed supercompensation effect (Concentrated loading)???
I think CNS demanding abilities should be trainied in recoveied state and should be not allowed for greater reduction in their level due increase fatigue. Some fluctuations are normal, but falling down to induce greater supercomp later is not allowed (accumulated fatigue). This approcah can be used with endurance type abilities, but explosive abilities should show constant trend of improvements…
Anyway, YVerho said that Matveyev Model uses artifical periods, while his model uses natural variations for periodization, and all I see in YVerkh work are those three blocks (A,B,C) everytime in every sport with same pattern. Anyway, I heard that Matveeyev kick his ass during one discussion regarding his “natural based” periodization methods…
Try to keep on the “bolded” quiestion… Does eliete sprinters need to induce acute-overtraining in speed to induce Long Term Delayed SuperComp and provoce new increase in speed? Is this really needed?
you have right: a sprint cannot accumulate many levels of fatigue!
but the problem is that in preparation, levels of stifness raise so the quesiton is:
at the end of MxS what are your levels of speed?
so, the real question isn’t if a CF’s system is but the real differences when CF or YV train his sprinters!
YVherk in his articles and books write about optimal speed in training
in Soviet experiences (and in italy) many work is done over 85% whilst in CF’s system sprinters work over 95%
THAT IS ONE OF THE GREAT DIFFERECENCE!
and that one leads to program a more flat levels of volume of training through the differents annual phases of training (for example)
of course there are others big differences
Is there any real “negative transfer” of MxS phase on sprint, due “accumulated fatigue”, or this is just “emphasis issue”?
I dont think there is a negative transfer, but I think that to develop one ability you must concentrate on it (without developing acute-overtraing, just emphasising it) while the other are put on maintenance… So speed does not suffer due direct negative influence of MxS phase, but rather because it is put aside a litlle… Anyway, Does Charlie develops speed or accleration in MxS period?
To be honest I am little confused here, so I will let Dr. Evil clear this mess! Dr. Evil?
Just, another opinion: MxS “sucks” some adaptive energy and greater improvement (key word) are not able in speed. Improvements are slower and there is no decrement in speed…
Thanks again regarding clarification of YVerho’s approach! Where can I found english type articles from YVerkoh?
i talk about MaxV (sorry for my poor english)
MaxV suffers for MxS (for stifness reason and maybe for the decrease of T/C)
In this subphase of training is dangerous to train this quality (maximally of course and not sub max)
Also, you can find this one in YVerkh’s articles and book
Sorry, but i have only italian literature by the prof
PS: i have a question
After phase I, in MxS 2, after the first 3-4 weeks of loading, is it better 7 days of unloading (such us in MxS 1) or 10 days to allow a better speed training in the beginning second part of this sub phase?
Vabo,
do you have some italian articles in PDF? I was learning italian for 7 years while living in Pula (Istria/Croatia) and maybe I could understand something? Thanks in advance
you have to wait me a moment…
i can give you some e-books (in italian) but we have to wait the week end (and you have to remember me this fact!)
Thanks, I will remind you!
Think of waves rather than killer blocks. the waves can rise and fall so that the pattern is that not all the waves are cresting at the same time. as for which speed aspect is emphasized? Well, that depends on the phase and whether it’s short-to-long or long-to-short.
This is covered in the Vanc 2004 DVD in detail as to the timing of componants in both approaches. Please have a look at the muscle size thread here also. i put some remarks there about this topic.
Hi all,
I’m new here so please forgive my lack of knowledge in some areas and sorry for bringing up such an old thread again but I would like to provide an example of a training cycle that is concerned with overtraining etc. Please note that this training cycle is working with exercises that are performed to make gains in max strength but also a little bit of explosive but far more emphasis is on max strength.
It was developed by a very very well respected gymnastics coach named Christopher Sommer. I have just read his newly released book (I absolutely love it) and the training cycle that he has his athletes (gymnasts) follow is called “steady state”. It is a 8-12 week cycle where you choose exercises that you percieve to be hard/ straining and as you progress through the cycle this level of percieved effort decreases. As such you have progressed through: overload (heavy strain), load (medium effort) and underload (easy/ recovery). After the cycle you move to a harder variation of an exercise for example progress to dips on the still rings and progress through another cycle and so on. As a side note you aim to develop all planes (frontal etc) and exercises are performed for low volume low reps such as 3X3.
I know that this isn’t directly related to sprinting but I understand many sprinters perform exercises to develop max strength and so I wondered what your thoughts on this cycle is and maybe this has given some people ideas/ something different to incorporate etc.
Hope this was interesting to some people.
Thanks!
gymrob
Give us much more details about It, then It would be possible to discuss on the subject with you.
Keep in mind that Olympic lifting also preach on lower stimulation and greater frequency.
In sprint, we might run 6 times a week, but only 2-3 are hard training sessions.