As for what sometimes IS, we can go to Georgie Best for a description: ‘I spent a fortune on booze, birds, and fast cars- the rest I squandered’.
I get your point but it looks like more of an excuse not to know what we’re talking about than insight into the modern game of football. Why don’t we get our representative baseball training pith from Cecil Fielder or representative football milieu from Kenny Stabler and just save some brainpower for other things? This is 2007, and George Best, while a fantastically skilled player, would not last 20 minutes in today’s EPL which has morphed into the fastest-paced league in the world.
I’d also like to know what credentials and experience the other posters who say that not much training goes on in professional soccer have to offer. If you were in premiership level soccer even 5 years ago what you knew then is now meaningless. Just watch a match from, say, 2000, and watch one today. It won’t take too much time and would make analysis more relevant than just faking it like you know what’s going on.
I get the various points but you exaggerated them to make it seem comical when it’s just that, a simple point with less and less cash value each day in European football.
Good post. Let’s get back to a discussion of how to move preformance forward- via an aerobic/speed/speed reserve approach as I suggest or intensive tempo?
Some coaches (mostly of lower placed Premiership teams) are very driven by the concept of out-working opposition teams and therefore want a team that work at higher levels of intensity and drive the coaching towards intensive tempo type work.
Fair enough. All I know is I am more confused as both a player (high-level amateur) and a coach (u-14 girls, nationally ranked team) about the art and science of soccer conditioning than before I read this thread.
Here’s what I think: I think there is enough expertise about aerobic/anaerobic metabolic pathways and their attendant training methods to prescribe a scientifically sound programme artfully applied to a club’s real-world periodization needs but nobody’s doing it. You don’t work for me, directly, but if you’re on the science and training side isn’t that why you post here?
I see a lot of guessing. I assume that’s not why you post here?
Yes, soccer is unpredictable. It’s not THAT unpredictable. Athletic abilities aren’t that specific either. You don’t need to know how many sprints, of what duration, and of what intensity you’ll make during a given game. Why would you? You have to be able to put power on the ground for a range of distances. Isn’t how to maximally generate that power what’s important?
No, you can’t “get in shape” via matchplay but so what? Who tries that? You’re switching from pro to pick-up leagues when it suits your argument. You also can’t get into matchshape by aerobic/anaerobic training. It’s a dance.
I see somewhat of a dismissal of the ability by some of the better posters here to apply what you know directly to soccer. Just assume a team does have plenty of time to prepare, as 99% of teams do. What would the prescription be then? What if a team DID want an elevated focus on speed/sprint work, what then?
With all respect to duxx who works for a pro team and is troubled with that side of it.
sprachethiklich,
Thank you for joining the forum! I (and other users) are very happy to hear new arguments, critiques, another viewpoints. I especially love to discuss about soccer, cause that is the sport I work with.
I am just finishing one training manual that outlines my ‘system/philosophy’, so If you could wait little more, I would be interested in hearing your critiques.
I will soon post a link to the manual. Stay in touch
Bishop and Schneiker are criticizing the study “Effect of two different intense training regimes on skeletal muscle ion transport proteins and fatigue development”, discussed in this thread, in latest issue of Am J Physiol Regulatory Integrative Comp Physiol. I have uploaded the letter for you all to read. In short they are making an argument against the conclusion made by Mohr et.al.
I really hope that there will be a reply, they bring up some interesting questions.
I’ve volunteered to assist a university coach with the physical preparation of his team (men). Unlike a pro team they will have a very long period of preparation.
The pattern will go as follows.
Feb. 4-Mar. 21: Preparation with no matches
This will be 5 days a week and limited to physical prep. only. No work with the ball. Monday-Friday session with no more than 8 hours per week total.
Mar. 24-Mar. 31: vacation (no formal training)
Apr. 1-May 3: Informal matches, usually on weekends. No limitations on ball work or hours of training and only one mandatory rest day.
May 5-Aug. 3: Summer break. Players are on their own and given an outline of what they should be doing in terms of training. Many will play on local league teams. These teams almost never practice, they simply show up on game days.
Aug. 4-Aug. 18: Pre-season preparation with no matches, but no limits on hours or work with the ball. Only one mandatory day off per week.
Aug. 25-Nov. ?: Championship Season. No limit on hours, or type of work done. One mandated day off per week.
For additional background, the team has under performed and has numerous key player injured. There has been no systematic strength program. The coach likes gadgets (sleds, ladders, etc.) but flogs the crap out of the players when doing this work, so it all turns into endurance work. The players get really down (the coach is not inspirational) and results spiral. By mid-season many of the players have stopped caring and are out partying.
The upside is that the coach is willing to learn and change. I just think that he has been copying things that he has heard from others. They also have an assistant coach who the players like, though he may be more stubborn. I also know many of the players quite well and know that the key guys all want to succeed and are willing to listen.
OK, that’s the thumbnail. I want to incorporate as much of the CF system as possible into what they are doing. FIRE AWAY!
Just wanted to give an update regarding the info in this post:
This summer I was fortunate enough to have worked with several American college players, males and females.
They all brought their programs so I could look at them. Their “interval” work was essentially tempo pace, but the coaches just seemed to randomly assign distances not taking into account total volume. This was also paired with long distance work (runs of 30-70 minutes 2x/wk in most cases).
I followed the CF hi-low model focusing on accel, strength, MB throws, and weights on the high days and tempo work on the low days. The boys did the 12,000m/wk in tempo and their game performance was quite a surprise to them. They played in a summer league and found at times they could play 2 90-minute matches in 3 days without excessive fatigue and felt fine in the 90th minute. One player was a defender who played center mid this summer and found he was fit enough to handle the change.
A female, who had a fairly high level of fitness coming in, was able to handle 12,000m without games, leagues etc. She went to school for an early workout and was crushed the entire team in their workouts. Her S&C coach told her she was the fittest player to come in as a freshman. Sadly, one workout was 10 x 120 in 20 secs. # weeks prior, I had given her 4x(10x110) in 19sec (PR in 100m of 12.5). These 10 sprints were quite a joke for her, but her teammates seemed to struggle.
I have used similar workouts for high school/club players but they seem to not tolerate more than 5000-6000m/wk. My thoughts are they play 11 months a year and their “games” get in the way of allowing them to improve their fitness beyond their game schedule.
To conclude, the tempo fitness work and CF’s recommendations on distances did wonders with my college level players.
The performances of these players has turned heads of many, and now the phone has been ringing. I will continue to update the forum on things. Thanks again for everyone sharing on this post.
That’s great ESTI. Keep it up!!
As for the 11 month crowd, if the pros are travelling 8000 to 12000 per game, lower level players would still be at least in the 6000m to 7000m range- making the weekly totals easy to hit with 5000 to 6000m of tempo. Even during the off month, there wouldn’t be any big losses of tempo fitness.
BTW, I’m no math genious but average out the total volume covered over 90m and lower it by the amount of time consumed at much higher averages during intermittent sprint bursts and you see even extensive tempo is faster than the vast majority of game play.
Are you saying still try to hit 12K/wk for this age? It could be the level I have, they just seem to not be able to finish a big circuit at all. To get the remaining 5-6 in tempo, it’s essentially 2 days of big circuit work, plus practice and games. That is easily managed.
I guess my next question that has come up is younger players who have a high level of fitness. Should they do more tempo work? Shorten the rest with the same volume? I have a few younger players (age 15-16) who can handle 3000m no problem.
This has been my point to coaches, but they still seem to want to pound the pavement with their players.
Originally Posted by charlie francis
BTW, I’m no math genious but average out the total volume covered over 90m and lower it by the amount of time consumed at much higher averages during intermittent sprint bursts and you see even extensive tempo is faster than the vast majority of game play.
True and what you find with soccer players is that they can do 17-18s 100m pace all day but their flat out sprinting is only perhaps 14-15s pace. At least with the girls I’ve worked with.
Interesting, thanks for feedback.
ESTI, how did you individualized tempo sessions? Based on position played or ‘tested’ aerobic fitness? Or everyone did the same? Thanks
Could you let us see your work? It is very interesting. I have the same question with with Duxx did you design it for individuals or just use a generic plan for all players?
I followed the CF hi-low model focusing on accel, strength, MB throws, and weights on the high days and tempo work on the low days. The boys did the 12,000m/wk in tempo and their game performance was quite a surprise to them. They played in a summer league and found at times they could play 2 90-minute matches in 3 days without excessive fatigue and felt fine in the 90th minute. One player was a defender who played center mid this summer and found he was fit enough to handle the change.
12Km/Wk is what I do in the second week of preparation with my junior teams (won two regional championships in the last two years), too. I then slowly lower the volume and increase intensity of the runs. On the “high” days I don’t start with short acc. rather with intensive Tempo that later becomes sub.max. speed and finally max. acc. Then, when the championship begin, the setting change again.
Before you jump on me for using intensive Tempo, we have to think about the different physiological effects between an intensive Tempo for athletes with high AT such as soccer players and athletes with a low AT such as sprinters.
Sorry, but I see no reason for intensive tempo in soccer at all. Intensive tempo will interfere with speed and the interferance will start towards the end of the prep period when you have the least chance of getting over it before the season starts.
