so charlie with 12000m of tempo/week that would equate to around 4000m session 3 times/week in the off season… so how many speed/plyos/weights days would you use? 2 or 3?
Did you read his posts?
Depends on the plan and availability. you could do either but I prefer three.
Nothing to disagree with Pakewi!
Anyway, why do we look at SE training as ‘it never happens in a game’;‘it is not specific for soccer’;‘it develops lactate power/capacity’ (the hard distinction btw energetical systems does not exist along with the terms capacity/power of the same). Let me ask you something for the sake of discussion: ‘when does the player stop and start doing squats during a game’;‘Where are the hills inside the field’, etc, etc.
The point is that with SE training we are not trying to simulate the game (and with this kind of logic you are wrong if you aim at that, cause long sprint very rarelly happens in a game) but rather STIMULATE it… As TC has pointed out, it all comes to smart planning of load during a preparations… It is true that SE work limit recovery and speed sessions… So what? Plan it in limited emphasis with limited ammount and place it at the end when all other components are developed.
True, but some teams can’t play into shape… Thus, a lot of stress and potential injury due tackles may happen, thus the risk of too much friendly games is evident.
Cover what is not covered in team practices and frienly games: speed, strenght, plyos, tactics and techniques. Leave aerobic conditioning and metabolic conditioning to team practices and games.
BTW, our team won with 3-0 in guests… They showed some signs of fatigue during last couple of minutes, but they showed great tackle strength - I guess from medball work and strength training (and some drills we did).
Teams can’t play into shape if they’re out of shape but please refer to the graph of activities on the Vancouver 2004dvd and see the time frames for improvement of the various High Intensity Elements (shorter to the “left” moving to longer as you move to the “right” of the F/T curve). The corollary is the longer it takes to gain a quality, the longer it takes to lose it also! Now transpose the concept onto an 8 week off season and see where you are in terms of needs.
Then reflect on the idea of simulation itself: What for?? If simulation is key, why have any off-season?- just keep playing. You use the off-season to advance certain criteria, taking advantage of a relative reduction in competing stresses from other areas.
Speed competes very directly with Special Endurance and the application of each must be weighed against the need.
I like your comment- not simulate it BUT stimulate it!!
How do you define “fit”?
I wish that were the case for Italian Serie A players…
My whole point being:specifically training metabolic lactic pathways for soccer is an extremely inefficient mean in any basically simple costs/benefits analysis,whatever advancement in fitness it may provide.
Similar considerations may be done for the aerobic metabolic pathways:what are the costs of trying to ADVANCE those parameters in training? Is it possible that targeting “aerobic maintenance”,instead of seeking improvement in such a general parameter may reveal itself as a way more productive strategy due to relative minimization of costs in the area?
Charlie’s 12.000m weekly tempo volume does exactly that: it creates a background fitness level,letting the individual player benefit from it as needed (advance,or…maintain!).
Other much more crucial factors will have to be considered,and targeted to minimize injuries though…
I agree. Even a SLIGHT advance in aerobic fitness with not compete for the same HI resources as Special Endurance will.
I perfeclty understand your logic here. But my only doubt is that Rippetoe and Kilgore mentioned something different.
Based on your comment here ‘the longer it takes to gain a quality, the longer it takes to lose it also’ and based on your graph in Vanc2004, I can sort the components based on ‘time it takes to lose them’ (adaptive persistence) from longest to shortest time (to lose them).
General Endurance ---- Strength Endurance ---- Accumulation Weight (Cross Section) — Speed Endurance ---- Plyos ---- Maximum Speed — Maximum Weights ---- Conversion Phase Weights
But… According to Rippetoe and Kilgore the situation is different
Hypertrophy — Strength — Muscular Endurance — Power — Technique — Cardiovascular Endurance
Cardiovascular Endurance is the fastest ability to loose!!! Bangsbo showed that after three weeks off followed by four weeks re-building period, athletes were UNABLE to return to previous level of endurance (but unfortunally I don’t know how he measured this… maybe Yo-Yo test), but they achived better results in high-intensity exercise test (field test)… This confuses me…
Actually it is Michael Boyle’s quote to be honest.
The point is that, even if long sprints don’t happen in a game, SE work may improve aerobic power and recovery between short sprints as indicated by the research I quoted. Thus SE drills are NOT to improve SE qualities (which are not needed) but rather some other qualities which ARE!
Aerobic fitness being quick to loose??
If a test is showing that- the test is bullshit and you should turf it!
Just use the same tempo sessions you’ve used all along. If they can handle them, don’t worry about it.
Reminds me of the idiots in Australia sending the top player home as aerobically unfit TWO WEEKS after he was athlete of the year and finished as the star of the playoffs.
Imbiciles!
Great post as allways.
Anyway, are you saying that tempo distance/volume should be pretty much the same for every player based on his position or individual characteristics to form a ‘base’ (advance or maintain in some players). I used the same method the last couple of months, but I am questioning this approach now…
Anyway, tempo forms a ‘base’ … but for what? Specific endurance which is developed by playing games/team practices? Why not improving this even more by doing ‘now and then’ some SE training, not directly intended to improve lactic systems but to futher increase the ‘base’ and improve recovery between short sprints (which short sprint work with reduced rest, accordig to quoted study, does NOT improve as would be common sense to think)?
Please note that I am not arguing with you guys because I don’t agree… but rather because I want to learn more… and improve my players even more…
This is what Rippetoe and Kilgore say… ‘Significant loss of VO2max (cardiovascular endurance) can occur in a matter of days, whereas the significant decay of added muscle mass (hypertrophy) may take many weeks or months following cessation of training’ (p.222)
Anyway, I believe you more 
Yes I am.
There is NO concept of any “base” implied in my words.
SE does not improve ANY recovery related parameter!
Insightful as always. SE, like pure Speed relies on, and therefore competes for, the same set of recovery stimuli.
I did that approach (and I got the philosphy underlying it), but when I think better, maybe I will plan tempo distances based on position played and individual characteristics (see ‘Some testing results’ thread in soccer sub-forum). What is a ‘base’ of midfileder is not a base for forward player…
Let me quote you: ‘Charlie’s 12.000m weekly tempo volume does exactly that: it creates a background fitness level,letting the individual player benefit from it as needed (advance,or…maintain!).’
Isn’t ‘background fitness level’ same as ‘base’? Please correct me if I missed something here
Read it for yourself! If you get the full paper please send it to me.
Make sure you really think…better. It entirely depends on the context.
Let me quote you: ‘Charlie’s 12.000m weekly tempo volume does exactly that: it creates a background fitness level,letting the individual player benefit from it as needed (advance,or…maintain!).’
Isn’t ‘background fitness level’ same as ‘base’? Please correct me if I missed something here
No,it is not.A base implies if not a peak at least some construction upon,which is NOT the case here,as I stated.
Read it for yourself! If you get the full paper please send it to me.
Everyone always “hears what he wants to hear,and disregards the rest”.
Read Charlie’s words above,please,and trust me,don’t get lost in too much “science”:the variables already present in the system cause enough entropy,you do not need to add more yet.
chalrie and others… what i don’t understand is this:
I seems like the general consensus is that the offseason is when players should work on compomenents that don’t get that much emphasis inseason such as speed and strength. SE is not emphasized in the offseason becuase 1)its apparantly not specific to soccer and 2) because you can get “fitter” playing the game…
but then why would you do 12000m of tempo per week which is 1) also worked extensivley in season and during the game, and 2) would surely interfere with the power/speed sessions…? 12000 m of tempo not only makes it tough to do 3 speed sessions per week due to all the running…
thoughts?
‘Base’ is just a term (taken from enduarance sports) and thrown around in team sports with no thought given to what it actaully is.
That was a strength book … a bit like Britney Spears commenting on hair styles (or underwear)
From my (though limited experience) Many UK Premeirship players do very little training and rely on gentics and talent to get by.
If I can I will post an actual premeirship teams weeks training … (in the humour section).